GrumpyGOP yovo yovo bonsoir 18164 Posts user info edit post |
Periodic update of your most likely WWIII scenario, which now involves someone screwing up during the Russian invasion of Ukraine in a way that gets a bunch of NATO forces killed, causing the country in question to activate Article 5. Probably start off by trying to keep it limited to fighting separatists in eastern Ukraine, but either we kill a bunch of Russian soldiers in another whoopsie-daisy or Putin can't afford to back down, and either way, it's bad news bears.
I don't think it's what anybody wants and I don't think it's likely, but it wouldn't be the first time that a dumb mistake led to a big war. 2/2/2022 4:36:02 PM |
moron All American 34036 Posts user info edit post |
I'm increasingly thinking this is not going to end in a military conflict. Some ukraine guy on twitter was saying he thinks it will end in a negotiated ceding of a small amount of territory to russia, and an exchange of money, which still sets a bad precedent but still is far better than a war for all sides. 2/2/2022 4:49:11 PM |
GrumpyGOP yovo yovo bonsoir 18164 Posts user info edit post |
I still think military action is the most likely outcome but the likelihood has been declining for me as well. And if they do move, I side with the experts who think they're less likely to try to take any new Ukrainian territory, and more likely to degrade Ukraine's military capacity to the extent that it won't/can't oppose recognition of the eastern republics (or possibly their annexation to Russia). 2/2/2022 5:25:25 PM |
moron All American 34036 Posts user info edit post |
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60257080
China saying they are going to help Russia militarily if it comes to that 2/4/2022 10:13:17 AM |
GrumpyGOP yovo yovo bonsoir 18164 Posts user info edit post |
Uh...not in that article, they aren't, nor anywhere else I've seen. 2/4/2022 12:29:42 PM |
moron All American 34036 Posts user info edit post |
"Friendship between [Russia and China] has no limits, there are no 'forbidden' areas of cooperation," the statement reads.
Is the subtext there not “we will help them fight if needed” 2/4/2022 1:47:29 PM |
GrumpyGOP yovo yovo bonsoir 18164 Posts user info edit post |
No, definitely not. At worst it's coyly suggesting that help isn't out of the question. There is absolutely zero chance that China will comes to Russia's aid in the event that a wider war results from invading Ukraine. 2/7/2022 8:37:54 AM |
daaave Suspended 1331 Posts user info edit post |
^ I don't have an opinion either way but can you explain your reasoning? 2/7/2022 2:03:09 PM |
GrumpyGOP yovo yovo bonsoir 18164 Posts user info edit post |
China and Russia aren't allies. Historically they've been competitors or outright hostile to each other. They have gotten quite a bit friendlier in the last decade or so, it's true, but they're still not allied (even informally) and there's really only so many areas where their interests overlap.
Where those interests do overlap, I'm sure they would cooperate. A crisis in Central Asia or North Korea could see them working together militarily. But Ukraine is thousands of miles from China. China doesn't have any significant cultural, strategic, or economic stake in what happens in Ukraine or Western Russia. They don't really even have a reason to care about NATO expansion in the area. No doubt China would like to see NATO fall apart, but adding Ukraine to the mix doesn't really change anything for them.
So if there's no benefit to aid Russia with the Ukraine operation narrowly, the question becomes whether China thinks there will be a general European war and, if so, whether there is any benefit to China getting involved. I think their answer is "no" to both. Even short of joining a full-on war on NATO, significant Chinese assistance to Russia in such a conflict would very quickly cement US alliances around the world. NATO, AUKUS, Japan, South Korea - all would see closer coordination and the list would probably expand to include other countries concerned about a Beijing-Moscow axis. This state of affairs would be untenable for China and essentially force them to upgrade the conflict to the global level. I don't think China wins that war, and I don't think they think they win it, either.
So basically I see a whole lot of downside to China "helping Russia militarily," and pretty much no upside. Which isn't to say that China won't, like, sell weapons to Russia - of course they would, and probably already do - but I interpret statements like "we will help them fight if needed" (to quote moron to be more substantive, one military supporting another. 2/7/2022 4:27:42 PM |
Cabbage All American 2066 Posts user info edit post |
On the other hand (and admittedly I'm far from an expert on this (you probably shouldn't even listen to me)), if Russia invades Ukraine, I could see China taking advantage of the general chaos and invading Taiwan. 2/7/2022 5:40:57 PM |
GrumpyGOP yovo yovo bonsoir 18164 Posts user info edit post |
So I had considered the possibility and I think even voiced it earlier in this thread. But now, the more I think about it, the less likely it seems. There's problems on both ends of the equation - creating the right amount of chaos to distract us, and pulling off the invasion.
On the Ukraine side, we've got to ask, is there an amount of chaos that (a) would keep us so occupied we wouldn't come to the aid of Taiwan, which is strategically more important for us in the long term, and (b) wouldn't be too chaotic. By the former I mean, if we don't really get involved directly in the invasion, we're not really going to be distracted. By the latter, I'm referring to a range of possible scenarios in which we might be very, very busy with Russia but China would still have other concerns. A nuclear exchange with Russia might be survivable for the species and even for the countries involved, but all of Russia's fallout is making a beeline for China and they've got to deal with that. Even a conventional war, if it were general between NATO and Russia, would put the United States on a complete war footing. If we fail to get to that footing - if the country is too divided, and Fox News urges people to protest our war against the peace-loving workers and peasants of the Russian Federation, and we can't get our World War groove back - then sure, China might think about Taiwan. But if we do get that groove back, then I think it makes us even more likely to come to Taiwan's defense. The war with Russia would monopolize a lot of our land forces, but we've got a big Pacific navy, and that's all you need to prop up an island.
Then there's the other question, which is baldly whether or not China thinks it can take Taiwan in a way that makes the operation worth it. Conventional wisdom is that they still don't think so. It's a country with difficult terrain, a small (relative to China) but well-equipped military, and a population that is motivated to resist and has a lot of advantages from an insurgency perspective. Meanwhile China has been building their navy up, but it's still untested, and Taiwan's been preparing to repel a naval invasion for the last 70 years. Could the PRC effectively throw out the government of Taiwan? Yes. Can they hold the island without it becoming such a running sore that they regret it? Can they hold it without having to result to behavior so brutal that the Chinese population becomes aware of and disgusted by it? That's harder to say. I think they're sincere in their desire to incorporate the island, but I think circumstances would have to be a lot more favorable in order for them to try it. Even more favorable than a "Goldilocks" Ukraine conflict that had us just the right amount of distracted, possibly. 2/8/2022 9:04:39 AM |
Cabbage All American 2066 Posts user info edit post |
Thanks for your thoughts! (I don't have anything to add; like I said, I'm fairly ignorant of a lot of the details in both Russia/Ukraine and China/Taiwan). 2/8/2022 9:51:40 AM |
moron All American 34036 Posts user info edit post |
[Edited on February 8, 2022 at 5:05 PM. Reason : Lame]
2/8/2022 5:00:00 PM |
moron All American 34036 Posts user info edit post |
Russia, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, Neo confederacy and Iran
Vs
America, NATO And a surprise China alliance 11/3/2022 9:02:29 PM |
TreeTwista10 minisoldr 148217 Posts user info edit post |
yeah, all the white nationalists from "Neo Confederacy" will be happy to team up with arabs and persians 11/3/2022 9:04:47 PM |
StTexan Suggestions??? 6811 Posts user info edit post |
Iran and saudi arabia teaming up. LOL 11/3/2022 11:44:38 PM |
0EPII1 All American 42535 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "Russia, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, Neo confederacy and Iran
Vs
America, NATO And a surprise China alliance" |
That's all well and good, but I really need to know whose side Madagascar will be on... come on, I have a match tonight!11/4/2022 2:24:50 AM |
CaelNCSU All American 6883 Posts user info edit post |
America/NATO and Saudis have to be on the same side. 11/4/2022 10:27:22 PM |
The Coz Tempus Fugitive 25644 Posts user info edit post |
Yeah, just like on 9/11. 11/5/2022 9:53:51 AM |
moron All American 34036 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | " yeah, all the white nationalists from "Neo Confederacy" will be happy to team up with arabs and persians" |
Nazis partnered with Indians and Japanese. And even now, Iran is helping Russia in ukraine, and gop also wants to help Russia. Saudi Arabia is tacitly helping Russia and mbs clearly hates the Biden admin.11/5/2022 3:12:28 PM |
GrumpyGOP yovo yovo bonsoir 18164 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "Saudi Arabia is tacitly helping Russia" |
Where you getting this?
Iran, sure, but haven't heard much about the Saudis.
Also, you have to pick one. Iran can be part of the other axis, or Saudi Arabia can. They can't both be on the other side. As much as I loathe both MBS and the Iranian regime, and as much as they may hate us right back, they hate each other more.11/14/2022 5:14:43 PM |
rwoody Save TWW 37501 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "BREAKING: A senior U.S. intelligence official says Russian missiles crossed into NATO member Poland, killing two people.
A Polish government spokesman did not immediately confirm the information, but said leaders were meeting on "crisis situation."" |
11/15/2022 2:36:00 PM |
bbehe Burn it all down. 18402 Posts user info edit post |
11/15/2022 3:12:10 PM |
afripino All American 11374 Posts user info edit post |
hope lil yachty and the wock are ok 11/15/2022 5:13:41 PM |
TreeTwista10 minisoldr 148217 Posts user info edit post |
Poland will retaliate with their famous submarines with screen doors. 11/15/2022 5:57:34 PM |
The Coz Tempus Fugitive 25644 Posts user info edit post |
So it begins. . . 11/15/2022 8:40:53 PM |
aaronburro Sup, B 52876 Posts user info edit post |
Gotta say, Grumpy's "I don't think Russia invades Ukraine post didn't age well... 11/15/2022 8:45:41 PM |
GrumpyGOP yovo yovo bonsoir 18164 Posts user info edit post |
^I can believe I said that, but can't see where I did. Closest I can find in this thread is "I still think military action is the most likely outcome but the likelihood has been declining for me." 11/16/2022 8:16:46 AM |
aaronburro Sup, B 52876 Posts user info edit post |
Doh. Must have misread it. Your page topper damn near came true yesterday
Nope, it's moron who said it.
[Edited on November 16, 2022 at 7:46 PM. Reason : ] 11/16/2022 7:43:58 PM |
GrumpyGOP yovo yovo bonsoir 18164 Posts user info edit post |
One uncomfortable thing about this war is that nuclear weapons haven't been so scary in decades...but at the same time, they've 100% kept this war limited in scope. Absent Russia's nuclear arsenal, I'm positive that NATO would have seized upon the Poland thing to become directly involved. The actual origin of the missile wouldn't have mattered.
Still, the fact that it was just a couple of farmers who got killed was lucky (for everyone except the farmers, I guess). 11/17/2022 8:19:28 AM |
1985 All American 2175 Posts user info edit post |
Currently in Poland, seems like half the folks here want it to have been russia 11/17/2022 6:48:52 PM |
aaronburro Sup, B 52876 Posts user info edit post |
^^ generally agree. Russia's underwhelming performance so far has certainly revealed their conventional forces to be no match for NATO forces, especially as Ukraine has largely driven them back using 20+ year old weapons systems donated by the West. Any fear the West had of a Russian military resurgence has been all but eliminated, and there's little doubt now that the west could dictate terms of conventional engagement against Russia at least as effectively as Russia is doing so to Ukraine. Would it be quick? Absolutely not. But when a massively outnumbered, outgunned, and outspent opponent can destroy half of your main battle tanks with decades-old equipment and little air support, that's not a good sign. The West surely sees that. But those damn nukes.
The risk, though is obvious. With every setback Russia faces, as the veneer of military strength Russia wanted to project crumbles, the question will inevitably be raised: if their conventional forces are this fucked, is it possible their nuclear forces are in equal disarray? 11/17/2022 9:39:40 PM |
rwoody Save TWW 37501 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "BREAKING: North Korea fired off an apparent intercontinental ballistic missile on Friday, Japan said, with the weapon likely to fall into Japan’s exclusive economic zone. japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/11/1…" |
11/17/2022 10:40:06 PM |
moron All American 34036 Posts user info edit post |
^^^^^ sorry for jinxing it 11/20/2022 10:52:49 PM |
moron All American 34036 Posts user info edit post |
So I guess something just needs to happen in east Asia for us to basically be at ww3 right?
When does the first American troop get deployed to fight in Israel/ukraine/china… 10/12/2023 11:52:29 AM |
StTexan Suggestions??? 6811 Posts user info edit post |
^GI buddy of mine went to fight against China in Vietnam. Couldn’t stop talking about shrimp 10/12/2023 8:56:38 PM |
emnsk All American 2746 Posts user info edit post |
DRAFT ME I'M READY
GONNA WRITE SOME MAD WAR POETRY 10/12/2023 10:37:45 PM |
StTexan Suggestions??? 6811 Posts user info edit post |
Lets do Jews vs The World and see how bad the US lay the smacketh down 10/12/2023 10:51:26 PM |
emnsk All American 2746 Posts user info edit post |
like israel vs all? 10/13/2023 2:26:54 AM |
The Coz Tempus Fugitive 25644 Posts user info edit post |
More lie Israel vs. ALLAH, amirite?! 10/13/2023 9:51:53 AM |
emnsk All American 2746 Posts user info edit post |
LOL 10/14/2023 3:08:50 AM |
moron All American 34036 Posts user info edit post |
Russia and Iran vs NATO, with China as a surprise ringer for NATO
India as a surprise ringer for Russia 10/14/2023 11:29:58 PM |
The Coz Tempus Fugitive 25644 Posts user info edit post |
What about Russia and China's unlimited partnership?
India and China also don't get along. 10/15/2023 7:57:57 AM |
moron All American 34036 Posts user info edit post |
I think China eventually stabs Russia in the back
Fact of the matter is China is stronger smarter and better than Russia. They don’t need Russia to push back on America, and Russia is actually dragging them down with their pathetic show recently. China should be the influencer in Russia and our extreme sanctions on Russia are making this clear to China. 10/15/2023 11:38:26 PM |
emnsk All American 2746 Posts user info edit post |
India joins Russia... against china, with NATO.
China is defeated, and India and Russia colonize the Western side of China and the West the East and THE NEW COLD WAR BEGINS. LET'S GO 10/15/2023 11:44:39 PM |
GrumpyGOP yovo yovo bonsoir 18164 Posts user info edit post |
Iran is at the center of a couple of axes here, including the obvious in Israel (which is itself a function of the Iran/Saudi conflict), as well as the less-well-publicized but equally ethnically-cleansy Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict. Azerbaijan just forced a ton of Armenians out of their homes and Blinken is warning it may invade Armenia proper soon to create a land bridge to an exclave on the other side of the country. Iran doesn't like this expansionist Azerbaijan, which is allied with Russia (though supposedly so is Armenia).
Then, too, apparently there's only two times a year when an amphibious invasion of Taiwan is feasible, and one of those times is October, so the Middle East could turn into a sideshow if Xi wants to get crazy. 10/17/2023 6:37:41 PM |
The Coz Tempus Fugitive 25644 Posts user info edit post |
Xi:
] 10/17/2023 7:34:10 PM |
emnsk All American 2746 Posts user info edit post |
I hope Iran recovers its own culture. I've looked into it via the 'internet rabbit hole' before, and they have a very unique and rich history. 10/17/2023 10:02:36 PM |
moron All American 34036 Posts user info edit post |
China's second-ranked military official, speaking at a military forum, vowed to develop military ties with the United States while accusing ‘some countries’ of ‘creating turbulence’ and trying to undermine Communist Party rule https://reut.rs/40dK5lx
One of several moves recently showing China wants to be bffs with America
[Edited on October 29, 2023 at 11:26 PM. Reason : ] 10/29/2023 11:26:44 PM |
emnsk All American 2746 Posts user info edit post |
sino-american anti-alien alliance incoming 10/29/2023 11:33:37 PM |