we're a football school

1/20/2011 4:27:24 PM

the argument that we gave herb blah blah blah seasons so we should give sid the same chance does not hold water. handling things incorrectly in the past does not justify handling things incorrectly in the present.

1/20/2011 4:29:46 PM

milkboner, are you not afraid that our next coach might not be any better than lowe, and that we'd be starting right back in the exact same spot we were 4.5 years ago? and possibly be in the exact same spot we are right now in 4.5 years?

or are you confident that we'll get a great coach and make the tournament next year?


[Edited on January 20, 2011 at 4:35 PM. Reason : ]

1/20/2011 4:30:04 PM

Quote :

"we're a football school"

1/20/2011 4:30:57 PM

Quote :

"alumnus != graduate"

so you're saying he used it correctly?

1/20/2011 4:31:21 PM

Real talk

Being 1-3 sucks dick, but those losses are to two of the country's best offenses and to one of the country's best defenses (really two if you count Duke). We play above-average to good offense, and pretty bad defense. We'll pick up more wins now being out of the toughest stretch of our schedule.

So, 8-8 here we come

1/20/2011 4:31:46 PM

hahah

1-3 SUCK DICK

1/20/2011 4:32:25 PM

Ernie typing credibility watch

1/20/2011 4:33:11 PM

BEING 1-3 SUCK DICK

1/20/2011 4:35:32 PM

LOL

this is going to be a good page.

1/20/2011 4:38:58 PM

Quote :

"milkboner, are you not afraid that our next coach might not be any better than lowe, and that we'd be starting right back in the exact same spot were were 4.5 years ago? and possibly be in the exact same spot were are right now in 4.5 years? or are you confident that we'll get a great coach and make the tournament next year?"

I'll answer it like this. It is certainly possible we hire the next Bzdelik (sp?). If we get unlucky, we fire his ass too (like how UNC did to Doh). For a competent coach it shouldn't take 4.5 years to build a program to 'were [sic] we are right now'. We're finishing in the bottom of the ACC every year with this guy. To repeat the same thing over and over and expect different results is what some call insanity.

We have a new AD who just hired a new soccer coach away from the #5 soccer school in the nation. No I don't think we're going to be getting Jim Boeheim anytime soon, but she's has demonstrated competency from her AD position that has not been seen at this school in decades.

I think you believe Lowe is building something here, and I whole heartedly disagree. The results speak for themselves. Watching a top 25 program and watching our program is night and day. That's my honest assessment, and we'll likely have to agree to disagree.

[Edited on January 20, 2011 at 4:43 PM. Reason : .]

1/20/2011 4:39:07 PM

Quote :

"the argument that we gave herb blah blah blah seasons so we should give sid the same chance does not hold water. handling things incorrectly in the past does not justify handling things incorrectly in the present."

If Coach K and Dean Smith, etc. starting coaching right now at Duke and UNC in this era, they would have been fired. K sucked ass his first 5 or so seasons, now look at him.

I am of course not saying Lowe will automatically become a Coach K, but the 11 years I have been a State basketball fan, every fucking year I'm having to listen as to whether or not our coach should keep his job and the shit is getting old and does effect the program as a whole. Sid brought in a very very talented class (that seems to be learning slower than we hoped) and I think he deserves another year to put it together. Firing a coach every 3-5 years is just fucking stupid. I want to win as much as the next person but it's not like we have a big name coach knocking on our door to come here. We will most likely experience a similar lull under the next coach.

1/20/2011 4:42:06 PM

eh, i appreciate your honest assesment.

but i got a kick out of your statement

Quote :

"To repeat the same thing over and over and expect different results is what some call insanity."

haha, says ohboyeedonbeebeemilkboner......

1/20/2011 4:43:09 PM

Quote :

"and we'll likely have to agree to disagree ad nauseum, over and over and over again, over dozens of pages of this thread"

1/20/2011 4:43:22 PM

^^ lol point taken

1/20/2011 4:44:42 PM

Quote :

"If Coach K and Dean Smith, etc. starting coaching right now at Duke and UNC in this era, they would have been fired. K sucked ass his first 5 or so seasons, now look at him. "

Went to the tournament in years four and five, was national runner up in year six

1/20/2011 4:45:01 PM

your argument is valid if you think sid could EVER coach a acc championship winning team. i just don't think he has what it takes to EVER do that. if you give him a team full of talented seniors i don't think he has the coaching ability to do that. i guess what i am saying is that in my opinion lowe has already reached his ceiling so there is no reason to retain him

1/20/2011 4:45:42 PM

So you're saying we need really good white players to dominate

1/20/2011 4:46:07 PM

^^^K also came in when Duke was coming off a Final Four appearance 2 years earlier

Yet we act like 5 straight NCAA tourney appearances is some great thing

Quote :

"your argument is valid if you think sid could EVER coach a acc championship winning team. i just don't think he has what it takes to EVER do that."

he nearly did it his first season here

1/20/2011 4:47:59 PM

you know, i would be 100% on board w/ give lowe two more years b/c in the grand scheme of thing it's worth the risk if he does hit some stride and turn it around.

EXCEPT, as i've said before, his teams always come out flat and look upset all the time. if they were playing hard and just not getting it right it'd be one thing, but these guys just don't seem to want to play. that is very discerning.

1/20/2011 4:49:30 PM

Quote :

"Yet we act like 5 straight NCAA tourney appearances is some great thing"

Is it not?

1/20/2011 4:55:27 PM

Absolute best-case scenario for the rest of the season:

Miami - W
@ Clemson - W
@ UNC - W
VT - W
@ Duke - L
@ WF - W
Clemson - W
@ Maryland - L
UNC - W
GT - W
@ UVA - W
FSU - W

That's 11-5. Most likely we're going to drop some games we should win and finish 8-8. That probably means somewhere between the #3 and #7 seed in the ACC Tournament. If we finish at least .500 in conference, can get wins vs. UNC, VT and FSU, and a win in the ACCT, I think we're in the dance. If not, we're the first team out.

If that happens, and we're playing good ball, like we showed at times last night, I'm down with another year of Sid.

1/20/2011 4:55:45 PM

lowe had a very steep learning curve.

and we're the 17th youngest team in the nation.

1/20/2011 4:56:22 PM

5 or 6 seed might be better than 3 or 4, since we'd get an additional game vs a weak team to pad our total

Or is that crazy talk?

1/20/2011 4:57:41 PM

Quote :

"If we finish at least .500 in conference, can get a wins vs. UNC, VT and FSU, and a win in the ACCT, I think we're in the dance. If not, we're the first team out. "

not unless the selection committee puts some serious weight on the lack of Tracy in the first part of the season...See VT last year with 10 conference wins and no quality ooc wins.

1/20/2011 4:58:26 PM

Quote :

"Is it not?"

Its nice, and its better to make the tournament than not make it

But Duke fans were 1 year removed from a Final Four appearance, and K went 7-21 in conference his 2nd and 3rd seasons combined...Final Fours >>>> NCAA tourney appearances

I'm sure plenty of people thought he was a shitty coach who should be gone

30 years and 4 national titles later, I'd imagine Duke is glad they didn't prematurely quit on him

1/20/2011 4:58:59 PM

But VT didn't even play anybody good OOC, and I think that was part of the equation

1/20/2011 4:59:18 PM

VT had zero quality wins last year

Wins against UNC, VT and FSU would count as quality wins

And if we're playing our best ball at the end of the season, the committee will most likely recognize that

--

Quote :

"In January 1965, after losing 107-85 at Wake Forest, the Tar Heels returned to campus and found an effigy of Smith hanging from a tree. A week later, he was hung in effigy again after a loss to North Carolina State."

1/20/2011 4:59:40 PM

you know what, fuck it, i can't help it.

i'm officially back in the "give sidney lowe a chance" camp.

1/20/2011 5:02:36 PM

FYI: ^^Thats the origin of "GET A ROPE"

1/20/2011 5:02:45 PM

If we win next game against Miami like we're supposed to (I assume we'll be favorites) and then win on the road against Clemson things could get interesting. However, winning at Clemson is highly unlikely.

1/20/2011 5:03:33 PM

Quote :

"John Thompson's career as head coach of Georgetown was not without controversy. Perhaps one of the most controversial incidents was the hanging of a sign in the McDonough Gym. In 1975, after another perceived mediocre year, a sign was hung at the top of the rafters reading "Thompson the nigger flop must go."[2] The University quickly took down the sign and silenced talks for his termination."

Quote :

"However, winning at Clemson is highly unlikely."

winning @clemson is what tournament teams do. if we want to do anything this season we must win at clemson.

[Edited on January 20, 2011 at 5:05 PM. Reason : .]

1/20/2011 5:03:38 PM

God damn

1/20/2011 5:04:02 PM

we have the same chance of going 10-6 as jimmy clausen does of being a good nfl quarterback so im not sure what the point of this exercise is

[Edited on January 20, 2011 at 5:06 PM. Reason : obv georgetown and unc will never get a successful coach b/c of their lunatic fans]

1/20/2011 5:04:54 PM

Peyton Manning threw 28 interceptions his rookie season

1/20/2011 5:06:47 PM

and 26 touchdowns

1/20/2011 5:07:58 PM

shut up, that hurts my argument

1/20/2011 5:09:05 PM

Quote :

"As far as conference games are concerned we are controlling turnovers (12.8 a game) (reasonably well for a young team) getting a lot of offensive rebounds (13.6 a game) and pushing the tempo intelligently and managing to score the ball pretty well (we are tied with BC for most ppg in the league). I have more of an issue with our defense. Specifically the inability to force turnovers. We do a pretty good job not giving up open shots but we never seem to force turnovers and to me this is (and has been) the biggest indictment of Sidney Lowe's coaching ability. "

And I can understand the lack of defense and turnovers affecting the offense for sure, especially helping to get into a tempo running to court, getting easy baskets, and helping to end some of those long scoreless streaks we've had every game. So if the consensus is more the defense is hurting the offense I can get that. We certainly seem to have the depth and athletes to apply more pressure then we do. Although if you don't make baskets it is much harder to trap and press so it is an endless cycle.

It is interesting how in pretty much all of our losses we've gone on 5+ minute streaks where we haven't scored a point, or only trickled in 1-2 free throws. These are long stretches of time in each of our losses, often when the game was still close where we don't make a basket. You can go to espn and look at the scoring graphs from the game and all the sudden there is just a flat line where we quit scoring and the other team keeps scoring. Last 5 minutes of cuse game, 5 minutes during arizona, there were more than a few of those vs. Wisconsin(was a straight blowout but still), end of the half vs. duke, etc... if you remove those periods of time and we just manage to score even a few points during those stretches we'd have a few more wins or at least a lot more interesting finishes.

To me that is coaching. You know your team has shown the tendency to go through those periods you have to be better at coaching them through it, using time-outs, having go to plays/sets/line-ups. You are playing teams even for 32-35 minutes of a game, yet falling apart for these 5-8 minute stretches which turn out to be the difference. And those are the stretches where if you really watch the team they look lost and Lowe looks like he is helpless.

1/20/2011 5:10:10 PM

Pitt/Syracuse the other day

Pitt starts off on a 19-0 run

Syracuse goes on a 17-0 run to close within 2 points

My point is, all teams go through scoring slumps during a 40 minute game

1/20/2011 5:11:47 PM

Our scoring droughts are painful, and maybe they come more frequently than with other teams, but they happen to everyone.

Duke hit one field goal during a five-minute stretch of the first half last night, and we cut the lead from 8 points to 2 points.

[Edited on January 20, 2011 at 5:16 PM. Reason : Duke had another five-minute stretch w/ only 1 FG that carried through halftime]

1/20/2011 5:15:09 PM

Its the goddamn 35 second clock. It makes scoring droughts ridiculously long. Make it 30 already.

1/20/2011 5:17:48 PM

Quote :

"My point is, all teams go through scoring slumps during a 40 minute game"

That's why defense is so important. To try and keep it close while you're going through the slump. Or to hold the other team when you get your shit back together.

1/20/2011 5:21:10 PM

What is common might be periods of time where you aren't hitting shots, generally teams are still trickling in points from the line working through it.

We are talking about stretches here where we don't score A POINT for several minutes... as in 5+.

There is a big difference between making 1-2 baskets over a 5 minute span with 2-3 free throws and not scoring a single point for huge chunks of time. Wasn't even something I noticed someone else pointed it out to me, then started looking at the scoring graphs and we just like flat line.

1/20/2011 5:28:34 PM

Quote :

"There is a big difference between making 1-2 baskets over a 5 minute span with 2-3 free throws and not scoring a single point for huge chunks of time."

Let me try this again

Duke had two five-minute stretches last night with one field goal

1/20/2011 5:34:09 PM

Quote :

"so you're saying he used it correctly?"

I'm saying that tidbit was pointless

1/20/2011 5:35:19 PM

the Sidney Lowe Coach K comparisons are maybe the dumbest thing I've read on this board

for every Coach K who started out shitty but turned out to be a great coach (are there any other examples?), there are a million coaches who started shitty and continued to be shitty because, guess what, they aren't good at coaching.

1/20/2011 6:09:27 PM

Quote :

"Duke had two five-minute stretches last night with one field goal"

only stretch I'm seeing is the end of the half start of the 2nd like that. They still made a basket during that time. Earlier in the game they go through a ~4:30 minute stretch where they make a basket, and a free throw, but another basket never actually going 5 minutes without 2 baskets and a free throw aside from that period around half unless I'm missing the 2nd time you are talking about. We actually did get to the line against Duke and avoid any long scoreless stretches in this game, but still went long periods w/out FG.

Quote :

"Our scoring droughts are painful, and maybe they come more frequently than with other teams"

Which is exactly my point, it isn't that they don't happen to all teams, but they appear to be happening pretty frequently to us. And it isn't just one time a game, but sometimes two or even three times.

It is also an indication of how the team is reacting coming out of time-outs, which is pretty much not at all. Usually we are taking timeouts 3-4 minutes into these droughts yet they continue on. Lowe has not done a good job this year stopping the bleeding.

1/20/2011 6:12:30 PM

Look man

Do you have any proof that it happens to us more frequently than the average team

1/20/2011 6:47:52 PM

Quote :

"Went to the tournament in years four and five, was national runner up in year six "

Also, I believe there were only 53 teams in the tournament when Kryzooski made it in year 4.

I think the "Tournament by year 5" has become the expectation becuase it's easier to make the tournament now than it was in those days. Dean had to win the conference...he never finished as low as Lowe's teams and it was probably a much tougher conference then


[Edited on January 20, 2011 at 6:56 PM. Reason : ]

1/20/2011 6:53:10 PM

Quote :

" While the Wolfpack is improved in the open court and often pulls the trigger in half-court sets more quickly than in the past, it has struggled against its most difficult foes. As for those droughts, they’ve returned in an ugly and most untimely manner. An affliction that predates Lowe’s arrival in 2006, lengthy scoreless periods are still a problem for the program. Chalk it up to youth and not having power forward Tracy Smith for most of the early games, but this year’s gulfs had the same look and feel of previous struggles, perhaps indicating that the problem may be more difficult to fix than it appears on the surface. The Pack actually led Georgetown 44-42 with 16:30 remaining in a tournament in Charleston, S.C., but then failed to score for nearly five minutes while the Hoyas ran off 15 consecutive points. In all, Georgetown’s 40-19 run spanned almost the rest of the game, and the 82-67 loss should have served as a lesson for the Wolfpack. Two weeks later, State saw Wisconsin go on a 32-10 run to take a 44-21 halftime lead in the ACC/Big Ten Challenge. State failed to score over the final 6:40 of the first half and eventually lost by 39. A few days later, the Wolfpack led at Syracuse 53-47 with 11:46 left but lost 65-59. State scored three points over the final 9:46, including being blanked over the final 5:20. Poor shot selection and turnovers plagued NCSU in each of those situations, and even with the improved overall effort and performance at Syracuse, that old problem resurfacing was too much to overcome. "

That is a clip from this article :
http://www.accsports.com/articles/201012149349/wolfpack-insider-scoring-droughts-plague-pack.php

Where the ACC Sports Journal specifically goes out of its way to document the scoring droughts that have plagued our program over the past few seasons and this year. FYI this is written before the BC and FSU games where we go on a 4 minute run with 0 points which is part of a 6 minute run of only 3 points vs. BC and a 6 minute run at the end of the half vs. FSU with 0 points.

Although I guess this is common for all teams right? They just chose to go out of their way to write this article on us.

1/20/2011 7:06:24 PM