Quote :

"He finished in the top three in the league in 11 major offensive categories (essentially, everything but squeeze bunts). And he led Jones in every one of those departments except homers and RBI. "

on pujols...fyi...and he had 44 less at bats with runners in scoring position than did Jones.

Quote :

"But the case for Jones completely disintegrated when it came time to consider what happened when he and Pujols came to bat with men in scoring position. Pujols hit .329 in those situations. Jones hit .207. And that is one incomprehensible number -- that .207. "

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 4:12 PM. Reason : ]

11/15/2005 4:10:42 PM

Oh i agree that his numbers were superior to Jones'. There is no arguing that. But i say that the Cardinals would be better off without Pujols than the Braves would be without Jones.

11/15/2005 4:12:01 PM

^see thats where you're wrong

11/15/2005 4:12:53 PM

Sometimes you just feel like you are pissing on a forest fire.

11/15/2005 4:13:53 PM

Quote :

"Give me one example of where Andruw's defense cost the Braves a game. "

i just see it as forming a really really bad habit that MAY come back to bite him big time one day, why even risk it.....i mean it makes him look like a complete tool in my opinion....i give him his due skills wise, but if he had a better attitude i think a lot of people would be more willing to put him on that next level of players

11/15/2005 4:15:15 PM

How can people say the Pujols is head and shoulders above Andruw in every stat? He is ahead in Average which I admit is big but in everything else that can reasonable be compared side by aide andruw is better. You cant look at runs scored and say ohh Pujols is better.

11/15/2005 4:17:20 PM

No, the only thing keeping him from the next level of players is his ability to consistenly hit for a high average. If he would only learn that driving the ball the other way is acceptable, he would hit right around .300 with similar power numbers.

11/15/2005 4:17:48 PM

Quote :

"How can people say the Pujols is head and shoulders above Andruw in every stat? He is ahead in Average which I admit is big but in everything else that can reasonable be compared side by aide andruw is better. You cant look at runs scored and say ohh Pujols is better. "

Andruw: HRs, RBIs
Pujols: AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS, AVG w/ RISP, Extra Base Hits, Stolen Bases

11/15/2005 4:20:20 PM

well i figured the average thing was obvious, i think if he had a better attitude he would still be soon a lot more favorably accross the league. We are in the southeast, outside of here people think he's a piece of shit

11/15/2005 4:21:13 PM

does avg with RISP really matter all that much when Pujols didnt even drive in more runs than Andruw?

11/15/2005 4:23:48 PM

Well then does everyone outside of the southeast think that all Carribean, Dominican, etc. players are pieces of shit? Because they all seem to have similar attitudes and demeanors.

11/15/2005 4:23:51 PM

maybe if he had a better attitude, he would have swung a few more voters.



Pujols and Jones have opposite attitudes. Pujols is team and win...Jones is ME ME ME. They're both from the caribbean...dont know where jones is from. Thats a stupid fucking comment to make about peoples opinions of those players attitudes.

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 4:27 PM. Reason : ]

11/15/2005 4:24:59 PM

But it is not about attitude right? Isnt it about numbers? All yall keep giving as validation for Pujols over Jones is numbers.

11/15/2005 4:26:55 PM

yeah that may be true, but grown men and women should judge based on stats and not attitude.
I personally dont have a problem with Pujols winning. I have a clear preference but it can be said Pujols deserves it. I just think that to Andruw meant more to his team and the braves would ahve been no where without Andruw.

11/15/2005 4:27:09 PM

If you read what the analysts are saying, nobody is saying that Jones wasn't important to his team. They're saying that its a debate whether he was more important to his team than was Pujols.....


So from there, you go to statistics since you have two obvious front runners.

k...home runs and RBI's...Jones

EVERYTHING ELSE...Pujols...and like I say, pujols had 44 fewer at bats with runners in scoring position...where he usually hits better anyway.

11/15/2005 4:30:33 PM

I dont have a problem with Pujols as MVP, he is definitely deserving and has been since his first year. I just think that Andruw was more valuable to his team this season than Pujols was to his. I think Pujols is the best player in baseball, with arguments for A-Rod. Pujols has improved his defensive ability to become a good 1st baseman, and could go down as the greatest hitter to ever live.

11/15/2005 4:30:39 PM

Quote :

"does avg with RISP really matter all that much when Pujols didnt even drive in more runs than Andruw?"

Of course it does. RBIs are not solely independent. They are dependent on getting chances with runners on base. The fact that Pujols batted over .100 points higher in that situation yet still didn't have more RBIs is attributed to two things. The 10 HR discrepancy attributes to some of that but if all things (namely ABs in run producing situations) are held constant, given the discrpeancy in average with runners on base and RISP then it is entirely reasonable to think that Pujols would have had more RBIs then Jones. THAT is why it is important..

11/15/2005 4:31:11 PM

^^what you're saying is your mad that your guy didnt get it.

If you admit that he's the best player in baseball, then why doesnt he deserve the MVP? There is no logical reason to argue for Jones if you say Pujols is by far better...ESPECIALLY since you can NOT argue that Pujols didnt mean as much to his team as Jones.

Only braves fans are saying that. Analysts are saying that Jones was majorly responsible for their run, and without him they are fucked. But they are saying the same thing about Pujols. See where i'm going with this? Neither one was more important to their team than the other this year, so you have to break it down based on statistics...and you even said it yourself that Pujols is possibly the best player in the league.

11/15/2005 4:37:43 PM

Quote :

"Oh i agree that his numbers were superior to Jones'. There is no arguing that. But i say that the Cardinals would be better off without Pujols than the Braves would be without Jones."

Did you notice that Rolen was out for nearly the whole year, or that Reggie Sanders and Larry Walker were out half the year? The Cardinals would have not made the playoffs at all without Pujols this year.

11/15/2005 4:39:37 PM

Quote :

"Well then does everyone outside of the southeast think that all Carribean, Dominican, etc. players are pieces of shit? Because they all seem to have similar attitudes and demeanors"

haha, um.... [no]

11/15/2005 4:45:58 PM

Yea seriously. I can name a bunch on teh Braves even that don't have that demeanor..

11/15/2005 4:47:11 PM

^^^^No, im saying this is the MVP not the MOP (outstanding). To me Jones is the MVP, Pujols is the MOP. Jones was more valuable to his team.

^^^Yes, the Cardinals had injuries. But the Braves injury problems were just as bad if not worse. The only starter who did not spend time on the DL was Smoltz. Thats 80% of the rotation on the DL at one point or another (not including Sosa). The Braves played 17 rookies, including replacing the corner outfielders with rookies. Chipper spent plenty of time on the DL. Furcal played hurt the first 1/3 of the season. Giles as well. Estrada had a long stint on the DL and still isnt completely over the Erstad collision. So there you have it.

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 4:51 PM. Reason : .]

11/15/2005 4:50:20 PM

^Well I guess my point is even with all the injuries the Cards still had the best record in baseball and didnt make excuses when So Taguchi was batting cleanup.

11/15/2005 4:53:07 PM

The Braves didnt make excuses. They just went out and won the best division in baseball.

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 4:53 PM. Reason : .]

11/15/2005 4:53:42 PM

what the fuck is the difference between most outstanding and most valuable

there is no award for the most outstanding

Pujols is NOT outstanding...he does ALL of the little things. He runs well, even though he's slow as fuck. He makes smart decisions on defense, he hits for average and to drive runs in, not just trying to blast the shit out of the ball....of course he's strong as fuck so that comes with the territory.

Jones is outstanding if anything...he's flashy and hits a bunch of homers...but does he do all of the little things and keep everyone upbeat in the clubhouse? NO. so please stop saying that pujols is mop...cause that award would definately go to jones if anyone.

11/15/2005 4:54:51 PM

Again, another person who was in the Braves and Cards clubhouse this year. Tell me how do you get to do that?

11/15/2005 4:56:17 PM

^^For real how did Pujols steal 16 bases and only get caught twice?

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 4:57 PM. Reason : ^^]

11/15/2005 4:57:24 PM

Quote :

"well i figured the average thing was obvious, i think if he had a better attitude he would still be soon a lot more favorably accross the league. We are in the southeast, outside of here people think he's a piece of shit"

I'm sure there are people that think that, but most of them would still like to have Jones in CF on their team if they had a choice.

11/15/2005 4:58:54 PM

^^^Shut up man, thats a retarded statement to make just because you're getting pwned in this thread.

Have you ever heard anyone question Pujols's heart? Have you ever heard anyone question whether or not he's a team player? the answer is no

Now, have you ever heard anyone question Jone's heart or motivation? Have you ever heard anyone question whether or not he's a team player? The answer is yes. You dont have to be in the clubhouse to know this stuff. People talk, and word gets out.


All you hear about Pujols is how he's the most complete player in baseball, and a great teammate. Once again, I didnt have to go in the clubhouse to find this stuff out.



^^he's an elusive little fucker

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 5:01 PM. Reason : ]

11/15/2005 5:00:06 PM

What people? So you are buying that "people" say Jones' heart and desire can be questioned, but you wont buy it when the same "people" say that he is possibly the best centerfielder to ever play the game?

11/15/2005 5:01:57 PM

^^What he said.

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 5:02 PM. Reason : .]

11/15/2005 5:02:00 PM

oh yeah....I forgot...Defense doesnt win you the MVP....ask Barry Bonds. Quite possibly one of the worst left fielders I've seen in a while (at least recently...he's slow and misplays balls, but he was nice back in the pre-mvp/roids day)


plus i'm not questioning whether Jones is a great center fielder or not. He is. Pujols is also a becomming a great first baseman. How do you compare the two defensively? you dont.

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 5:05 PM. Reason : ]

11/15/2005 5:04:14 PM

Who this season questioned Jones' heart? THIS SEASON? no one. so i you say that Andruw should have a better attitude that is based on past seasons. Just like Pujols getting votes partially because he was snubbed 3 past years.

11/15/2005 6:29:21 PM

what is all this shit about andruw having an attitude problem

someone give of a concrete example of this

just cause he smiles and is a little smug in center you guys are acting like he's barry bonds

11/15/2005 7:27:02 PM

I dont really care if he has an attitude problem or not. Someone was bitching about how he got smited because he was from the DR or wherever. I pointed out that Pujols is from there too and the carribbean players do not have attitude problems, and if thats the case then Andrew brings it on himself. It really doesnt matter because this years MVP came down to stats. They were equally important to their teams. It was just something else for someone to bitch about.

11/15/2005 8:48:34 PM

KEEP PISSIN ON THAT FOREST FIRE BOYS

GO PUJOLS

11/15/2005 10:18:24 PM