I've mentioned a few times that I've wanted to make a video outlining my thoughts and research on zionism and its relationship to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict as well as the ideological, geopolitical and socioeconomic chaos in the world these days. I've taken a few rambling stabs at it and haven't quite hit the mark I aspired to, and frankly I need to redirect the bulk of my attention for the short term, so I planned on putting the topic in the backlog for a bit. Then today one of my favorite YouTubers published this video after 6 months without posting, and I decided we might as well start the conversation here, as I suspect he's done a far better job than I would have. Strongly recommend you check out the rest of his work as well, it's top notch imho.



[Edited on June 2, 2025 at 9:37 PM. Reason : ]

6/2/2025 9:36:01 PM

They always come back

6/2/2025 10:01:04 PM

iswydt

not sure how long it's gonna be till Part 2 comes out so I'll skip ahead a bit with some references

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursock_Purchases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Moshe_Barsky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_supporters_of_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Nebi_Musa_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haycraft_Commission
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208638/
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1dkq9jo/zionist_land_purchases_in_mandatory_palestine/

6/2/2025 10:51:14 PM

6/12/2025 7:12:46 AM

I'll care more about this one day

6/12/2025 10:00:08 AM

i spent decades not caring (much anyways) bc it seemed like an "over there" issue and i was more focused on spending my time trying to improve my own life. it wasn't until the topic became personally relevant and then seeing oct 7 and the global response to it that I actually took the time to try to understand what all this has been about. and now that i'm pretty sure i understand it, I'm appalled. most of the response in the west I see as good intentioned but likely ignorant just as I was. But regardless of intent, in the end this anti-zionist/anti-israel/anti-jew trend been destructive and ultimately immoral, and potentially delays the prospects of real peace among the tribes by another generation. i maintain hope that the power of truth and rational thinking can free us from that fate, and so i am doing my best to try to share what i have learned.

6/12/2025 10:47:32 AM

The fact that you are conflating "anti-Zionist/anti-Israel" with "anti-Jew" tells me you're not really that interested in a conversation. Also the fact that "conversations" aren't conducted by dumping more than an hour of Youtube comment and a slew of links with no actual comment by the initiator of the conversation.

I didn't watch either video. It's possible that the second one is perfectly reasonable and germane to the current situation. I can tell that the first one isn't because it starts out with David and Jebusites and shit, before flashing forward to...uh...the Roman Empire. These are not important things. They do not justify any modern political project. The Spanish don't get to invade Ukraine because it's the ancestral home of their Visigoth ancestors.

There was and is an argument to be made for the necessity of a Jewish state. I don't believe it was the necessary or ideal course, but I can see how it might seem that way and certainly how it seemed that way at the time. Having decided on the creation of such a state, I really don't think it was ideal to put it in a heavily populated area full of people who didn't want to move, and certainly not to do so based on religious texts and the fact that people say, "Next year in Jerusalem," which is ultimately what all arguments for the creation of the modern state of Israel boil down to.

But regardless, a Jewish state exists where it exists, and it cannot be made to cease to exist or even to change significantly without committing a genocide.

There are relevant historical facts that are important to understanding the situation as it exists today. None of those facts are 2,000+ years old. Really nothing before WWI matters much at all, and most things that matter are much more recent than that. So any time someone comes at me in a conversation with some Biblical quotes and Emperor Vespasian shit, it's very, very hard for me to take seriously.

6/12/2025 8:06:43 PM

^^What made it suddenly become personally relevant to you? Is your wife Jewish? If so, you will no doubt be aware that there is a very broad range of political attitudes espoused among American Jews. Not all involve blanket support for the actions and tactics of the modern state of Israel.

6/13/2025 1:19:18 AM

I was also wondering about that, because my wife is Jewish. Which means our kid is, too. So I've got a very personal stake in hating anti-Semitism. That's part of the reason I'm opposed to so much of what Israel is doing in Gaza: it is making the world more dangerous for Jews, including my family.

6/13/2025 8:39:50 AM

^^apparently they just don't understand what all this has been about.

6/13/2025 11:16:43 AM

My aunt’s sister married a hassidic Jew, I have distant Jewish cousins

6/13/2025 12:14:39 PM

Quote :

"The fact that you are conflating "anti-Zionist/anti-Israel" with "anti-Jew" tells me you're not really that interested in a conversation."

i specifically noted each in order TO differentiate them. they are indeed different factors, but also related. and it's important that we understand each of them for what they are, and to NOT conflate them.

Quote :

"Also the fact that "conversations" aren't conducted by dumping more than an hour of Youtube comment and a slew of links with no actual comment by the initiator of the conversation."

i addressed this in my post. and i've commented many times in different threads over the last year+. my intent is to use this thread to differentiate between israel's actions as a nation and zionism as a concept, in ultimate hopes of better understanding israel's actions as a nation at various stages in its development.

Quote :

"I didn't watch either video."

so watch them! i do my best to post relevant, high quality information. yes that means it will take some time to read/watch, but I think actually engaging with topics with depth and nuance works out better for humanity than merely consuming headlines and submitting to whatever emotional response that headline may have been designed to provoke.

Quote :

"I can tell that the first one isn't because it starts out with David and Jebusites and shit, before flashing forward to...uh...the Roman Empire. These are not important things. They do not justify any modern political project."

the intro is a storytelling device, surely you can understand that for what it is and approach it accordingly. consider watching the rest of the video with an open mind.

that said, i AGREE that just because a people were the dominant political entity in an area thousands of years ago doesn't give them (exclusive) right to be the dominant (or any at all frankly) political entity today. but let's be real. what is human history but the continuously changing story of various ethnicities, cultures and their emergent political expressions across the surface of the earth over time.

there are dozens of modern nation states whose existence is justified and unquestioned BECAUSE of the history of the people in that land across the generations, including across thousands of years. Egypt is for Egyptians, right? China is for the Chinese. France is for the French. Nobody bats an eye at these claims.

Ukraine has a right to exist, right? Despite the beliefs of some in Russia that Ukrainians are not a distinct people, and its territory rightfully belongs to Russia. Similarly, Israel has a right to exist despite the beliefs of some in Jerusalem or Tehran that Jews are a corrupt, devious, Muhammad-denying people, and its territory rightfully belongs to the ummah.

Jews aren't OWED a state (there are many peoples who I would say "deserve" a state, do not have one, but DO have the right to advocate for their own statehood - Kurds, Tibetans for example). but Jews do have just as much right to participate in that framework of nationhood and advocate for themselves as any other people. ESPECIALLY considering their history of persecution and exile.

Quote :

"There was and is an argument to be made for the necessity of a Jewish state."

this is really all i'm asking for. to recognize that zionism was and is that argument. and it's a legitimate argument to have and to make.

Quote :

"I don't believe it was the necessary or ideal course, but I can see how it might seem that way and certainly how it seemed that way at the time."

and that's absolutely fine. there are and were a great many voices and perspectives in the early 20th century on how to approach the question of jewish self-determination aka zionism, both religious and secular. but the question itself was legitimate, and as somebody concerned with "social justice" I would say it was in fact necessary, and that the jews who did decide that a reasonable solution was to buy land in the malaria-infested rump of ottoman southern syria, which happened to also be their cultural and ancestral homeland anyways, went about it legitimately and peacefully for DECADES. i just don't see the problem or what right it was of anybody else to tell them they weren't allowed to buy and settle in that land they bought and when the ottoman empire did finally fall apart, to advocate for and be granted nationhood just as the arabs wanted for themselves.

Quote :

"I really don't think it was ideal to put it in a heavily populated area full of people who didn't want to move"

it really wasn't heavily populated. let's look at some of the major population centers in the region around 1900

istanbul ~850k-1M (100k jewish)
aleppo 100-150k
beirut 100k
damascus 150-180k
baghdad 100-100k (1/3 jewish)
cairo 600-700k
alexandria 300k
mecca 30-40k
medina 20-30k

compared to existing jewish populations and areas proximate to new jewish immigration.

jerusalem 45-50k (majority jewish)
jaffa 40k
safed 15k
haifa 12-14k
hebron 10k
tiberias 6-7k
acre 7-9k

there was plenty of room for jews to have their own communities in the land on which to base their aspirational state. they bought the land fair and square and decided to do what they want with it, just as anybody else would have the right to do. i don't see how that's a problem.

yes some arab peasant farmers were displaced when the jezreel valley land in particular was sold, but that's how things work when land is sold. land sales aren't a new thing, and they're not evil. furthermore, the argument was that the jews who bought the land wanted to work the land themselves, rather than potentially foster a class hierarchy, or be seen as exploitative colonialists (eg Algeria where French settlers lived off the labor of the native Arabs).

i'm sympathetic to economic displacement, but at the end of the day, that's how things go sometimes. I didn't complain when I lost my job multiple times during the GFC or when a private equity group cut my job in 2023 or when AI/immigration(eg H1Bs)/offshoring shifts the labor market for my profession. that's life. deal with it and keep moving.

but it was that understandable economic displacement which was ultimately harnessed by religious leaders to turn the peasant angst into a holy war. and THAT has caused 100 years of pain, suffering and destruction. when it COULD have been "welcome home at long last, our Abrahamic cousins" but it wasn't, because a core narrative of Islam and the Quran is the jewish tribes of Medina rejecting Muhammad's claims to be the final prophet, the accounting of the battles that followed, and the Jews essentially being cemented in Islamic theology for all time as enemies of Islam.

[Edited on June 13, 2025 at 1:21 PM. Reason : . ]

6/13/2025 12:53:14 PM

Quote :

"and certainly not to do so based on religious texts and the fact that people say, "Next year in Jerusalem," which is ultimately what all arguments for the creation of the modern state of Israel boil down to."

agreed! God didn't give the land to the Jews, the Christians or the Muslims. But unless we're willing to also tell the Muslims "just bc you say Muhammad flew on a supernatural donkey 1000 miles overnight from Mecca to Jerusalem to visit with God doesn't mean you have exclusive rights to Jerusalem for all eternity" then the Jews and Christians have the right to hold tight to their mythologies in the region as well. Frankly I'd much rather all 3 religions look around at all the miracles that HUMANITY has made and quit murdering each other over ancient nonsense, but as long as they're not hurting anybody else, in the end I don't care that much if people find comfort and purpose in ancient scriptures. JUST DON'T HURT ANYBODY ELSE IF THEY DISAGREE.

Quote :

"But regardless, a Jewish state exists where it exists, and it cannot be made to cease to exist or even to change significantly without committing a genocide."

correct! but the palestinians and the broader muslim world have not accepted this fact generation after generation. and this is my problem. people will wag their fingers at the Israelis all day, but nobody wants to call the palestinians/muslims out on their own genocidal words and deeds. and this is THE root of the conflict. NOT Israel's behavior as a legitimate nation state protecting its own people from religious extremists.

How can there be a durable and lasting peace unless this unfortunate truth is properly confronted. By regional political and religious leadership AND the common people.

Quote :

"^^What made it suddenly become personally relevant to you? Is your wife Jewish? If so, you will no doubt be aware that there is a very broad range of political attitudes espoused among American Jews. Not all involve blanket support for the actions and tactics of the modern state of Israel."

to be clear, and this is why I prefer not to even bring my personal connections into this, I am trying to look at this conflict as an outsider. The same way I do Ukraine/Russia. Or China/Taiwan. Or South Korea/North Korea. Or India/Pakistan. I am not a member of these tribes. I'm just a human, and I care about the wellbeing and future of Humanity. (remember one of Yang's campaign slogans was #HumanityFirst). One because imo that is the most moral approach, but also because even if I don't have any personal connection (as was the case for most of my life) it does have ripple down effects that DO impact my life (my entire adult life has been dominated by the trajectory of my country bankrupting itself as a response to a religiously motivated attack on us)

but to answer the question, there are a couple relevant personal connections I have
1. my sister converted to Judaism years ago
2. i am a non-believer who lived in NYC for several years and witnessed multiple islamist acts of violence in the city during my time there
3. i remarried a few years back to a woman who is muslim
4. her kids (my step-kids) from her first marriage are also muslim and also half-palestinian
5. my children are non-believers whose lives and choices in multiple ways are not aligned with what many/most muslims believe is what God demands of humanity.


Finally, I AM here for a conversation. A real conversation. Some of that can still happen by typing characters on a website. But it's not 2000 any more. we can talk over video now. there are important conversations to be had, and our legacy text-based social media platforms are turning too many into tribalistic dummies. I, for one, am trying something new. When I work at my PC, when I am "online" I keep a livestream and video chat open and anybody is welcome to stop by and let's talk in real time, face to face. and for those who happen to be local, I'm happy to meet up in person as well. salam.

[Edited on June 13, 2025 at 12:59 PM. Reason : lol I forgot there even was a "Message body cannot exceed 10,000 characters." constraint]

6/13/2025 12:53:25 PM

Thank you. I wasn't really trying to pry, but you brought up the personal relevancy, which naturally prompted my question.

I appreciate what you are attempting to do, but I am scared to talk to people in real life. I prefer to hide behind partial anonymity and asynchronous text-based interchange. But perhaps one day.

6/13/2025 1:09:41 PM

Quote :

"the intro is a storytelling device, surely you can understand that for what it is and approach it accordingly. consider watching the rest of the video with an open mind."

All history is storytelling. We can try to beef up the verisimilitude of those stories with artifacts and primary sources and all that, but it's still telling a story and the choices we make in the telling are important. Even if they skipped the Jebusites, I still don't give a shit about the Roman Empire's role in this when it's time to talk about the practical consequences of political actions taking place today.

Quote :

"there are dozens of modern nation states whose existence is justified and unquestioned BECAUSE of the history of the people in that land across the generations, including across thousands of years. Egypt is for Egyptians, right? China is for the Chinese. France is for the French. Nobody bats an eye at these claims."

Uh...well, China has a substantial amount of ethnic conflict, as the Uyghurs and Tibetans, among others, would tell you. The question of whether "France is for the French" is rather famously the subject of heated political debate in that country regarding immigrants and minorities. Egypt is for the Egyptians, I guess, except when it's for Arabs more broadly (as when it unified its government with Syria's in the 1950's and 60's). These are not great examples, man.

There are more or less homogenous states that are accepted, yes. In general they do not have large populations of displaced people who want to live in that state's territory instead. If they did, they would not be accepted.

Quote :

"Jews do have just as much right to participate in that framework of nationhood and advocate for themselves"

Advocate for themselves, certainly. I'm not sure that I buy that any group has the right to "participate in the framework of nationhood" at the cost of involuntarily displacing others. Many of done so, yes. Different from saying they have the right.

Quote :

"which happened to also be their cultural and ancestral homeland anyways"

It's impossible to take you seriously if you're going to say stuff like this. The movement to buy land in Palestine wasn't because it was selling at bargain basement prices. It was because Palestine was the ancestral homeland.

Quote :

" i just don't see the problem or what right it was of anybody else to tell them they weren't allowed to buy and settle in that land they bought and when the ottoman empire did finally fall apart, to advocate for and be granted nationhood just as the arabs wanted for themselves."

Buy land. Settle in that land. That's all fine. That's how it's supposed to happen. I know there was friction even then, as often happens when new people move into an area - we've been seeing that for years now with various immigrant groups in this country. But the issue was not that Jews were buying land in Palestine.

The issue is this business of being "granted" statehood - a grant made exclusively by people in London and Paris and New York and other places that weren't Palestine and which did not feature (at all, to my knowledge, but certainly not prominently) Palestinians who would be affected. You can advocate for nationhood, you can try to make deals with Palestinians to establish that, but you can't let a United Nations that's about fifteen minutes old hand out a map of impossible borders and say, "Here, we're granting you countries now."

Quote :

"i'm sympathetic to economic displacement, but at the end of the day, that's how things go sometimes. I didn't complain when I lost my job multiple times during the GFC or when a private equity group cut my job in 2023 or when AI/immigration(eg H1Bs)/offshoring shifts the labor market for my profession."

You fucking should complain about that! That is not how things have to go! And for you to smugly tell people whose employment, lives, and homes were stripped from them in living memory to "deal with it" while bewailing a displacement that happened 2,000 years ago is infuriating!

Quote :

"but the palestinians and the broader muslim world have not accepted this fact generation after generation."

The Palestinians I can't blame, since they were and are victims of ethnic cleansing necessary to create and expand Israel - and I would argue that per the definition of "genocide" used by the United Nations, that would be the more appropriate term. That said, there are still plenty of Palestinians who would accept a viable two state solution.

The "broader Muslim world" certainly seems to understand that Israel isn't going anywhere and haven't tried to get rid of it in half a century. The Gulf states were willing to go to détente. Egypt effectively already has. Lebanon hasn't, though again, who could blame them given what Israel routinely does to Lebanon. The only ones who might actually be serious about wanting to get rid of Israel are the Iranians, who just lost one of their last two friends with the fall of Assad, and Hezbollah, which all just had their dicks blown off with pagers.

6/14/2025 8:10:19 PM

Quote :

" I'm just a human, and I care about the wellbeing and future of Humanity. (remember one of Yang's campaign slogans was #HumanityFirst). One because imo that is the most moral approach, but also because even if I don't have any personal connection (as was the case for most of my life) it does have ripple down effects that DO impact my life (my entire adult life has been dominated by the trajectory of my country bankrupting itself as a response to a religiously motivated attack on us)"

I would argue that there is zero humanity in displacing tens of thousands of Palestinians by Israeli settlers

less than zero humanity when it comes to committing genocide against those in Gaza

6/14/2025 11:32:16 PM

^I think Israel would view you as a nonstarter

6/15/2025 12:14:40 AM