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face
All American
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These are some of the most offensive ads I've ever seen. It makes me sick to think there are people out there who nod their heads after watching them thinking "yeah, thats a good point".

These people are supposed to be news anchors but their dialogue sounds like something you'd hear a secretary say.


Has anyone seen this one? I mean what the fuck is happening here this guy can't be serious...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3fJ5pJwtMU

2/2/2012 1:42:36 PM

mrfrog

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I wanted to agree with them. But it's too bad that they use categorically bad examples.

It's arguable, but it's not necessarily the case that the Hoover Dam was a good idea. Yeah, it's nice to have now (after we already spent all the money, sweat, and blood building it), but that doesn't mean it would be a green lighted business decision if we started at the beginning.

2/2/2012 1:56:40 PM

IMStoned420
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Well I've played Fallout: New Vegas and let me just tell you that when shit really hits the fan that dam is going to be a crucial strategic holding.

2/2/2012 2:08:32 PM

GeniuSxBoY
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Government ran out of money.
Government can't create jobs without money.

Solution? Credit. Spend money that doesn't exist!!!

Government ran out of credit.
Government can't create jobs without credit.

Now,why is that so hard for him to understand?

2/2/2012 2:50:35 PM

MisterGreen
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these commercials make me smh so hard. this network is WAY more fucking extreme than fox news on the other side of the spectrum. the panel of maddow. o'donnell, sharpton and schultz is ubearable and anyone hoping to glean the least bit of fairly-presented news is kidding themselves.

2/2/2012 4:59:06 PM

HockeyRoman
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I'm a liberal and even I can't tolerate Sharpton and Schultz. I do love me some Rachel though. O'Donnell is pretty decent but I really miss Keith Olbermann. Yeah, I said it!

2/2/2012 5:04:39 PM

InsultMaster
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democrats are notorious for this. sucks for center left people like me

[Edited on February 2, 2012 at 5:26 PM. Reason : -]

2/2/2012 5:05:21 PM

JesusHChrist
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This thread is sure to be a circle-jerk for Republican attack dogs.

The truth is, MSNBC is not a "liberal" news station. It's not a "progressive" news station.

It's a mouthpiece for the Democratic Party, which is a distinction I doubt any of the mouth-breathers on this board are equipped to fully understand. If it were in fact a liberal or progressive news station, they wouldn't let our Democratic leadership off the hook for embracing far-right policies.

2/2/2012 5:24:13 PM

face
All American
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Why don't we turn every unemployed person into a senator?!? Why do we only have two per state anyway!

2/2/2012 5:26:55 PM

InsultMaster
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BLUEBERRY PIE!!!1

2/2/2012 5:28:52 PM

Lumex
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Quote :
"These are some of the most offensive ads I've ever seen."

The most offensive, or just the farthest from your own viewpoint?

Have you ever disagreed with someone without also hating them?

2/2/2012 7:20:56 PM

moron
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I'm not sure what "Lean Forward" is supposed to mean, but it's obvious that the government can and does and has created many jobs.

It's because of the government that the US has the high standard of living that it does.



from http://mediasite.online.ncsu.edu/online/Viewer/?peid=38d970d3f0724ee188c274afaf299a1d


[Edited on February 2, 2012 at 8:08 PM. Reason : ]

2/2/2012 8:05:27 PM

face
All American
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The net effect of government is to destroy jobs, obviously.

With the exception of stuff like the enforcement of property rights.

2/2/2012 8:43:00 PM

red baron 22
All American
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why do liberals have so much faith in government

2/2/2012 8:59:38 PM

JesusHChrist
All American
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why do conservatives have so much faith in business?

2/2/2012 9:06:35 PM

red baron 22
All American
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i dont have faith in business, i have faith in not being told what to do or how to live my life by some bureaucrat

2/2/2012 9:10:41 PM

Chance
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Quote :
"The net effect of government is to destroy jobs, obviously.

With the exception of stuff like the enforcement of property rights."


Your second comment invalidated the first.

2/2/2012 9:11:46 PM

JesusHChrist
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you're right. it's much better to be told what to do or how to live by your boss...or your pastor.

2/2/2012 9:11:50 PM

Chance
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None of those people tell you how to live shit. Is this why people think liberals have weak stomachs and yellow backs? You think a fucking boss tells you how to live? The fuck? Really?! REALLLY?!

2/2/2012 9:24:31 PM

JesusHChrist
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"Boss" was a euphemism for multi-national corporations that force you to compete with sweatshop labor in China by cutting benefits, revoking overtime, and busting unions.

I was hoping you would have been able to make that leap.

2/2/2012 9:37:27 PM

JesusHChrist
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Its fucking amazing to me that conservatives are completely incapable of understanding the power-structure of society.

Like, they genuinely believe that if you strip government away of its power, that the power will then be pushed down to the individual.

And then you completely ignore the fact that throughout history, when you strip one organization of power, that power is then gobbled up by the next strongest entity (which becomes stronger). In our case, it would be the corporate state, which is a fact that you refuse to acknowledge.

You're so terrified of the supposed rise of socialism, that you're completely oblivious to the slow rise of american fascism that has been hijacking our democracy for the past 30 years.


[Edited on February 2, 2012 at 9:54 PM. Reason : ]

2/2/2012 9:41:59 PM

Chance
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Quote :
""Boss" was a euphemism for multi-national corporations that force you to compete with sweatshop labor in China by cutting benefits, revoking overtime, and busting unions. "


Do you actually live in reality or do you sit in academia these days not knowing how the real fucking world works. This comment is so abjectly retarded that I don't know where to being. It's literally about as disconnected as it gets.

Quote :
"You're so terrified of the supposed rise of socialism, that you're completely oblivious to the slow rise of american fascism that is hijacking our democracy."


No fucking sir. I'm very clear and very fucking aware about what is going on. I'm just not the dick that wants to grow government - you know, the other half of "corporate state" - ever larger as if this now larger government is somehow going to stop the influence of it's twin. No, I'm awake as fuck and realize the real problem is we get the government we deserve. A generation of American Idol watching, gotta have Apple product or life is over, no hard working fucks are making sure that we earn everything that is coming our way.

2/2/2012 9:55:12 PM

JesusHChrist
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you have accused me so many times of being a big-government liberal, that I really don't even know why I bother responding to you.

I don't know how many times I have stated that I think the issue is the corrupting influence of monopolies that have bought our government. I have stated, numerous times, that I don't think we live in a democracy anymore, and that our government doesn't represent the will of the people.

My solutions have never surrounded the idea of growing the government, but have been about limiting the influence of corporate money.

2/2/2012 10:10:32 PM

Chance
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Quote :
"I don't know how many times I have stated that I think the issue is the corrupting influence of monopolies that have bought our government."


Are you not fucking comprehending what you read? Of course people with money are trying to buy favors. Everyone that is even marginally paying attention can see this. The problem isn't with the people with the money, it's the the other 100 million give or take 10 million in our nation that can't be bothered to give a shit.

Quote :
"and that our government doesn't represent the will of the people."


Of course it does. The people don't give a fuck. And why should they, we've got it easy as shit compared to the rest of the world. This is the best god damn bit of soil on the whole fucking planet to be. You want me to take time out of my leisure to give a fuck? Hell no.

2/2/2012 10:21:08 PM

MisterGreen
All American
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Quote :
"The truth is, MSNBC is not a "liberal" news station. It's not a "progressive" news station.

It's a mouthpiece for the Democratic Party, which is a distinction I doubt any of the mouth-breathers on this board are equipped to fully understand. If it were in fact a liberal or progressive news station, they wouldn't let our Democratic leadership off the hook for embracing far-right policies."


the only words in your statement that need quotations are "news stations"

if it's just a mouthpiece for the democratic party, why don't they just acknowledge that? because, they'd rather fool all the people they can into thinking the information they're getting isn't biased.

2/2/2012 11:51:04 PM

theDuke866
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Quote :
"you have accused me so many times of being a big-government liberal, that I really don't even know why I bother responding to you."


Well, in all fairness, that's probably because you're a big-government liberal.

2/3/2012 12:28:19 AM

The E Man
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Our businesses are too large and too greedy. The government doesn't create or destroy jobs. Companies do and the only thing that determines which one they do is profit. Profit doesn't benefit society.

We shouldn't have corporations. No company should be bigger than one site. If all the owners had to face that one site and live in the community everyday, companies would care about a little more than profit. Multi site coops should be the only multisite businesses. The government wouldnt need to take over any industry in that world.

Its not a crazy idea, you just wouldn't have an uber rich class anymore and that wealth would be spread more evenly. Creative entrepreneurials would still get right though so its not class warfare.

2/3/2012 12:41:26 AM

d357r0y3r
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That's...an incredibly stupid idea. Do you realize how much that would hold back innovation?

2/3/2012 1:06:18 AM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Are you not fucking comprehending what you read? Of course people with money are trying to buy favors. Everyone that is even marginally paying attention can see this."


What is this even in response to? I never disagreed with that. Or did you just need a reason to lash out -- cuz, you know, you do that a lot.


Quote :
"Of course it does. The people don't give a fuck."



The majority of Americans want to raise taxes on the rich to help with the deficit (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/64017.html)

The majority of Americans polled DO NOT want to have cuts to Social Security or Medicare
(http://www.people-press.org/2011/07/07/public-wants-changes-in-entitlements-not-change-in-benefits/)

Americans want alternative energy research, environmental protection, lax drug laws, and care about civil liberties (somewhat split on civil liberties)--pretty hawkish about Iran though.
http://www.people-press.org/2011/11/03/section-8-domestic-and-foreign-policy-views/

Americans don't want austerity measures or spending cuts:
http://www.people-press.org/2011/02/10/fewer-want-spending-to-grow-but-most-cuts-remain-unpopular/

And yet, almost none of these issues are up for debate. That's not democratic.


Quote :
"And why should they, we've got it easy as shit compared to the rest of the world. This is the best god damn bit of soil on the whole fucking planet to be."


Oh?

http://www.businessinsider.com/15-shocking-facts-about-poverty-in-america-2010-9

http://www.businessinsider.com/here-is-more-substantial-data-behind-the-occupy-wall-street-movement-2011-10#in-1979-production-and-non-supervisory-workers-saw-a-119-percent-rise-in-productivity-and-a-100-percent-rise-in-compensation-from-1947-their-wages-have-gone-up-just-8-percent-since-1

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-income-inequality-is-a-really-big-deal-2011-11#first-lets-start-with-the-basics-in-the-us-the-richest-20-are-85-times-richer-than-the-poorest-20-1

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2011/09/2011913215553440501.html

Middle Class is being wiped out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A




And voter turnout has been on the rise since 2000, if you're going the apathy route.


Buuut...voter supression is on the rise:

http://brennan.3cdn.net/92635ddafbc09e8d88_i3m6bjdeh.pdf

http://brennan.3cdn.net/d4b3cfe23771173d16_r7m6iv642.pdf

http://brennan.3cdn.net/34876f1cabd6d0e252_kwm6id7l7.pdf

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-gop-war-on-voting-20110830


Soo....if our elected officials aren't listening to the voice of the people and pushing legislation that goes against what the people want...I don't really see how you can define that as democracy.

Sheldon Wolin describes it as inverted totalitarianism, though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism



But, you know, I'm sure your experience in the real world would shed some light on the situation. Obviously I don't know, because I'm disconnected from reality.

[Edited on February 3, 2012 at 2:00 AM. Reason : ]

2/3/2012 1:37:12 AM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Well, in all fairness, that's probably because you're a big-government liberal."



You bring up a good point, comrade

2/3/2012 1:38:30 AM

lewisje
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anyone who dares question the religious right is automatically a big-government librul loony dontcha kno

2/3/2012 4:18:16 AM

Chance
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Quote :
"And voter turnout has been on the rise since 2000, if you're going the apathy route."


Look, you aren't going to pull some fucking stats out over your preferred range and expect me to take that bullshit at face value do you? The fuck you think I am, a liberal?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_the_United_States_presidential_elections

Sweet, we've managed to get back to where we were in the 60s. I bet people were saying apathy was decreasing in the 20s'/30s too, just in time for us to start getting fat and lazy again.

Hell, thank you for forcing me to get this chart because it sums up exactly what I've been saying on this board for years. Shit doesn't change until conditions get so terrible we force it to change. Every big trend in our economy starting with the Industrial Age can be seen on that chart.

Quote :
"Soo....if our elected officials aren't listening to the voice of the people and pushing legislation that goes against what the people want...I don't really see how you can define that as democracy."

They DO listen to the people you fucking clown. It's just that the people aren't always talking. The big money and lobby dollars are and the desire to get re-elected has a higher weighting than people not speaking up in their Democracy. The people could be ever vigilant against ALL forms of legislation that they don't like no matter how insignificant but they don't give a fuck and can't be bothered to. But hey, just keep growing that government brohab, thats certainly gonna fix the problem.

[Edited on February 3, 2012 at 6:54 AM. Reason : .]

2/3/2012 6:51:23 AM

theDuke866
All American
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^^ Come on, I oppose the religious right...I'm not sitting here saying that if you're to the left of Pat Robertson you're a leftist.

...but JesusHChrist is a liberal by any standard.

2/3/2012 6:28:12 PM

JesusHChrist
All American
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Ironically, Jesus Christ in fact, stood to the left of Pat Robertson.

2/3/2012 6:52:09 PM

1337 b4k4
All American
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Quote :
"The majority of Americans want to raise taxes on the rich to help with the deficit (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/64017.html)

The majority of Americans polled DO NOT want to have cuts to Social Security or Medicare
(http://www.people-press.org/2011/07/07/public-wants-changes-in-entitlements-not-change-in-benefits/)

Americans want alternative energy research, environmental protection, lax drug laws, and care about civil liberties (somewhat split on civil liberties)--pretty hawkish about Iran though.
http://www.people-press.org/2011/11/03/section-8-domestic-and-foreign-policy-views/

Americans don't want austerity measures or spending cuts:
http://www.people-press.org/2011/02/10/fewer-want-spending-to-grow-but-most-cuts-remain-unpopular/

And yet, almost none of these issues are up for debate. That's not democratic.
"


Boy if that isn't a summation of something gone so wrong in our country, I don't know what is. "I want everything, but I don't want to pay for any of it"

2/3/2012 7:52:34 PM

JesusHChrist
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to the point of democracy:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wlHB6jSe7s


Quote :
"Inverted totalitarianism reverses things. It is all politics all of the time but a politics largely untempered by the political. Party squabbles are occasionally on public display, and there is a frantic and continuous politics among factions of the party, interest groups, competing corporate powers, and rival media concerns. And there is, of course, the culminating moment of national elections when the attention of the nation is required to make a choice of personalities rather than a choice between alternatives. What is absent is the political, the commitment to finding where the common good lies amidst the welter of well-financed, highly organized, single-minded interests rabidly seeking governmental favors and overwhelming the practices of representative government and public administration by a sea of cash"


[Edited on February 3, 2012 at 8:46 PM. Reason : ]

2/3/2012 8:42:05 PM

aaronburro
BigMan rules
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Quote :
"I'm not sure what "Lean Forward" is supposed to mean, but it's obvious that the government can and does and has created many jobs."

and it also can, does, and has destroyed many jobs. what's your point? with this commercial, though. it's semantics to say that the gov't jobs are "created jobs," especially when you take into account that the money might have been better spent elsewhere had the gov't not sucked in the money to create its bureaucracy.

Quote :
"The majority of Americans want to raise taxes on the rich to help with the deficit"

wow, the majority of people would like to have someone else pay for shit. STOP THE PRESSES!!!

2/3/2012 9:13:06 PM

lewisje
All American
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It's not because they're "somebody else" but because they're the ones most able to sacrifice of their income.

2/3/2012 11:14:16 PM

aaronburro
BigMan rules
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no. it's because they are somebody else.

2/3/2012 11:14:49 PM

The E Man
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Quote :
"That's...an incredibly stupid idea. Do you realize how much that would hold back innovation?
"


Nah this is just republican drumbeat. Research already shows that the possibility of being rewarded in billions isn't what drives innovations. In fact, when reward isn't the goal, creativity and innovation actually INCREASE. We're not saying people who are innovative won't be rich. We are saying they won't be super billionaires.

This idea would spur innovation.

2/4/2012 12:00:58 AM

moron
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Until recently, I think Ireland had regulations limiting how large any individual store could be (which meant no Walmarts), which seemed to have the effect of creating more local variety in goods and foods.

But, from a consumer standpoint, the convenience of Walmart is just too compelling, and they have changed this policy.

2/4/2012 12:21:26 AM

Chance
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Quote :
" Research already shows that the possibility of being rewarded in billions isn't what drives innovations. In fact, when reward isn't the goal, creativity and innovation actually INCREASE."


Links to these findings? And "E Mans" webpage of fairy tales and other assorted bullshit probably doesn't count.

2/4/2012 7:35:35 AM

The E Man
All American
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http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html

2/4/2012 10:04:20 AM

moron
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Most visionaries don't do it for the money. Both Gates and Jobs were clear it wasn't their motives, and I'm sure three other big guys think the same. Then you have the thinkers like Einstein and Hawking, who clearly aren't motivated by wealth.

Money is only useful for stoking the primitive animal instincts of the masses who otherwise have no creativity our vision.

People with creativity and vision will try to use it regardless, and our system doesn't really place any inherent cahoot on these things (neither do most others).

2/4/2012 11:26:55 AM

d357r0y3r
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Quote :
"Nah this is just republican drumbeat. Research already shows that the possibility of being rewarded in billions isn't what drives innovations. In fact, when reward isn't the goal, creativity and innovation actually INCREASE. We're not saying people who are innovative won't be rich. We are saying they won't be super billionaires.

This idea would spur innovation.
"


This is not what you said. You said that the size of businesses should be arbitrarily controlled, presumably by the state. That's idiotic.

2/4/2012 3:02:40 PM

PKSebben
All American
1386 Posts
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Are you serious moron? Jobs was first and foremost a businessman.

2/4/2012 3:23:33 PM

d357r0y3r
Jimmies: Unrustled
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Nah bro, he did it for the good of mankind. The billions were just an added perk. That's why he gave so much of it away to charity.

2/4/2012 3:31:41 PM

The E Man
All American
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Have you seen or read about Jobs' lifestyle. He very well could have lived it only being worth millions.

2/4/2012 4:29:16 PM

Chance
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Please, point us to the key parts. You have no credibility here.

2/4/2012 4:50:51 PM

Str8Foolish
All American
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Jobs was a hippy dippy moron who got lucky once, then nearly ran his business into the ground before he was thankfully given the boot, then came back and "revived" the company by serving strictly as a "visionary" figurehead. If he's a businessman then he represents the worst about business, that an overpriced and underfeatured product can sell great if you emotionally manipulate consumers into buying them anyway.

2/7/2012 1:11:11 PM

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