Sorry to throw the thread off topic.

I don't see him as a hated user. I do see him as hypocritical though as it applies to his attempt to call me a slut shamer, for simply wanting someone to take responsibility for their actions, as I've said many times before.

No where in this thread have I been pro-legislation when it comes to the abortion issue. Do I think its morally wrong? Of course. Do I think I have a right to push my morals on someone else via our system of laws? No. It is up to them and to whatever god they pray to, if they do. I just don't see how "slut shaming" is brought into the argument. Hell you're the one calling them sluts, not me. I don't judge their lifestyle, just what they do with the consequences of it.

11/26/2013 1:17:36 PM

I can't remember when I said that, but I'm assuming it was because you said that abortion was not okay but okay in cases of rape. Slut shaming is the only reason for that view.

Edit:

Found it, it was on Page 30, and it was in response to a post by Smath74:
dtownral:

Quote :

"if you believe that abortion is wrong, but make an exception for rape, then its because you believe that pregnancy is punishment or a deserved burden. in simple language its slut shaming."

you can read the rest of the exchange on page 30 if you are curious

[Edited on November 26, 2013 at 1:24 PM. Reason : waaay back on page 30]

11/26/2013 1:19:24 PM

No, I haven't commented on the whole rape thing. If a woman is raped, then it isn't a product of a particular lifestyle. It's a product of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and really bad luck. If she doesn't want a by-product of something so horrible and terrifying, I'm good with it. I'm not saying that something wonderful could come from such a traumatic experience, but most women probably wouldn't want a daily reminder of what happened.

But I'm not a woman and I've never been raped so I'm just guessing.

But I still don't see how you get responsibility = slut shaming. It's only slut shaming if you think that lifestyle is inappropriate.

[Edited on November 26, 2013 at 1:26 PM. Reason : wert]

11/26/2013 1:25:06 PM

maybe you missed my edit, my comment was in response to Smath74's position so I'm not sure what your problem is.

[Edited on November 26, 2013 at 1:26 PM. Reason : more clarification: you and he don't have the same position]

11/26/2013 1:26:12 PM

Being against abortion except in cases of rape is not necessarily "slut-shaming". It may be, but to say it always is is silly. And calling someone "blonde" is not the same as calling someone a "fattie". I'd think that was obvious.

11/26/2013 1:29:58 PM

it was not an all-encompassing statement, it was in response to his position and statements. go read page 29-30 if you are confused.

11/26/2013 1:31:21 PM

nah man.

11/26/2013 1:33:36 PM

Quote :

" more clarification: you and he don't have the same position"

what exactly is my position?

11/26/2013 1:34:39 PM

something about voldemort

11/26/2013 1:35:34 PM

Quote :

"but most women probably wouldn't want a daily reminder of what happened."

so why should abortion not be allowed for any other time a woman doesn't want to carry a reminder? what if she breaks up with the father? what if she doesn't know who the father is? why is this the only thing the woman is allowed to not want a reminder of?

11/26/2013 1:44:23 PM

Because I'm assuming all of the other options you presented were consensual - her choice. Make a choice? Live with the consequences.

A reminder of a breakup? Come on really? How bout that 3 year old from a marriage that you're finding out isn't working. You really don't want a reminder of a failed marriage, so lets just terminate the toddler.

11/26/2013 1:52:43 PM

and do you see how we are back to the punishment/slut-shaming argument?

you are arguing that abortion is okay in cases of rape, not because a woman shouldn't be forced to carry a reminder, but because its not her fault in cases of rape. by extension of that, in cases where it is her fault she should have the burden/consequence/punishment of carrying the child.




[Edited on November 26, 2013 at 2:01 PM. Reason : terminating a toddler is called adoption]

11/26/2013 1:55:53 PM

she didn't choose for her birth control not to work. or for the condomn to break.

11/26/2013 1:57:04 PM

No, I don't, because I've just always said that folks should be accountable for their actions. I'm still not making a judgement call here. I am not shaming any sluts. I don't even use that term in my vocabulary.

Just like that one rapper, I forget his name, who claims to have fathered 28 kids. Ok. Good for you. Now man up and pay child support in response to your chosen lifestyle. I'm not begrudging him his actions, but he damn well better make sure those kids are provided for. Am I saying that child support is punishment for said lifestyle? No, just wanting to make sure he's being responsible for his actions. Just as I'm not saying that a child is punishment for a certain way of living. It is just a result of one's actions.

I mean its pretty basic here. I'm not getting into the whole debate about when life starts, or any of that.

11/26/2013 2:03:38 PM

how does "accountable for their actions" not mean the same thing as punishment or "slut-shaming'? you are describing exactly the same thing as I am.

will it help you if i call it the punishment argument? its semantics, it doesn't change the problem with your position.

your position, as you are describing it, is that abortion is wrong because pregnancy is the punishment for having sex; because being accountable for having sex means being pregnant and giving birth. that's exactly what I am describing.

11/26/2013 2:06:48 PM

Personhood In The Womb: A Constitutional Question
http://www.npr.org/2013/11/21/246534132/personhood-in-the-womb-a-constitutional-question

Quote :

"The fundamental concern that I have is that we’re criminalizing a medical problem that these women suffer from, and that we don’t do that to any other segment of our society. I understand the concern about the unborn fetus, but the very best way to manage that situation and the very best outcome for the unborn fetus is to treat the mom and the baby as a unit, and to get the best care for the mom. That means she has to be comfortable and free to seek care without concern that she will be placed in jail."

—
Dr. Barbara Levy, of the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists explains her concerns with the personhood movement and criminalizing pregnant women who suffer from drug addiction

Quote :

"The personhood movement is working to have fertilized eggs, embryos and fetuses recognized as completely separate constitutional persons under the law. It's not only [Personhood USA], it's 40 years of efforts by a variety of organizations who seek to recriminalize abortion. If it succeeds and fertilized eggs, embryos and fetuses are recognized as separate persons under the law, then what happened to Alicia Beltran in Wisconsin could happen, theoretically, to any pregnant woman. ... You could essentially have every pregnant woman subject to a person who is entitled to her medical records, who is entitled to require her to undergo whatever medical procedure is best for her, have her arrested if she doesn't obey."

Quote :

"The question all of these cases pose ... is: As a society, do we believe that there is a point in pregnancy where women lose their civil rights?"

__
Lynn Paltrow, of National Advocates for Pregnant Women

12/1/2013 7:08:12 PM

cause:effect is not the same as crime:punishment

12/1/2013 7:49:44 PM

So then why is it okay in cases of rape, the cause is still there.

12/1/2013 7:59:44 PM

Round and round we go....

12/1/2013 10:22:00 PM

Quote :

"Oh, so I guess a human organ isn't a clump of cells. A liver is a human being, as is the patch of skin that exists between my butthole and ballsack."

That would be why I said that calling ANYTHING a "clump of cells" is meaningless. Likewise, taking a clump of cells from a bigger clump of the same cells and trying to make an argument from that is equally absurd.

Quote :

"Sorry, but that wasn't a strawman. Answer the fucking question."

Actually, yes, yes it is a strawman. How about you answer my question? Should a woman be able to bash a kid's skull in at the age of 18 months? Why or why not?

Quote :

"When the child is no longer medically contingent on the mother her choices should have zero impact on its life."

So... 18 months probably falls within that window. She can bash its head in with a shovel then, right?

Quote :

"Clearly the adult woman with a fetus inside her is a person with full rights and there's a "gray area" concerning the fetus so in what world does a gray area trump an actual unambiguous person?"

Is the actual unborn that we know to be there not "unambiguous"? I'm pretty certain we know it's there... After all, were it not, we surely would not be talking about killing it...

Quote :

" I'm not comfortable removing or even lessening a woman's bodily autonomy rights due to the fact that she's pregnant."

And likewise, I'm not at all comfortable with killing and innocent human life simply because it inconveniences someone else. The woman's right to bodily autonomy ends when it involves killing another human life over concerns of comfort or convenience. The woman had the right to bodily autonomy when she chose to have sex.

Quote :

"you and i are fighting in a battle together and my chest is blown open and heart is blown out of my body. because of my injuries, they can not reattach my heart but can keep me alive on bypass machines while i recover but not for any longer than that. a field surgeon takes my heart and sews it to you so that it stays healthy while it waits for me to recover, my heart is supported by your body. to prevent rejection of my heart, they give you anti-rejection meds that sometimes make you feel very nauseous and sick and on some occasion may even restrict you to bed. because of my heart and the meds, you can not drink alcohol or take any drugs or my heart will be damaged. if you did not take the medicine or if you took drugs and damaged my heart, you would be doing me a disservice and would ultimately be killing me, but you have no moral obligation to carry my heart to term until i am healthy to reattach it. if you drank a little and i ended up with a disability it would not be abuse to me."

So, let's take an absolutely absurd and impossible scenario, and then draw conclusions from it. yeah, that makes sense Why can't the pro-slaughter crowd ever talk about what actually happens. Why do they have to divert to absurd hypotheticals that bear little to no resemblance to the issue at hand?

Quote :

"Sure it does: are you or are you not in favor of placing more restrictions on what a woman can do with her own body?"

And, again, you are begging the question by assuming the ONLY issue at hand is a woman's body. Why do you restrict what I can do with my body by making laws against murder and theft? WHAT KIND OF CRUEL MONSTER ARE YOU?

Quote :

"Slut shaming is the only reason for that view."

Yep. Cute talking points to avoid the actual issues being discusses is the ONLY reason someone might hold a view contrary to my own. That's the only logical reason for it.

Quote :

"she didn't choose for her birth control not to work. or for the condomn to break."

But she did choose to have sex. Trying to mitigate potential consequences of an action doesn't absolve you from any responsibility should those consequences come to bear. Otherwise, men who used condoms would never be responsible for child support in the event the condom breaks.

Quote :

"how does "accountable for their actions" not mean the same thing as punishment or "slut-shaming'?"

Because one is making a moral judgement and the other is not? Why is up not down and left not right? One statement says "you did this, the consequence is that"; the other says "you did this, and you're a horrible person for it". Those are two distinctly different statements. Pregnancy is not the "punishment" for having sex. That's a strawman. No one here is making that statement.

12/8/2013 4:41:00 PM

Quote :

"So then why is it okay in cases of rape, the cause is still there."

Because, as countless others have said, it's not a matter of "killing unborn baby is always terrible and is never to be allowed", at least not for me. It's a balancing of rights. The unborn has a basic right to life, by virtue of being a human life. The woman has rights to her body, by virtue of being a human being. Now, we balance those two rights, and the right to bodily autonomy in this case doesn't trump the right to life. Then, in the case of rape, the victim should have the right not to have yet another daily reminder of being raped; she should have the right not to continue being raped for another 9 months by the continued violation of her body.

Some people do make the argument that you should never ever ever kill an unborn child, for any reason. Ostensibly, they think the right to life trumps everything else. I don't see it as that black and white. Rather, I see it like this: woman's desire not to be inconvenienced < unborn's right to life < right of rape victim not to continue to be raped.

12/8/2013 4:47:11 PM

Why is rape the only thing that she is not allowed to have a reminder of? What of the father was abusive? What if she doesn't know who the father is? Shouldn't the mother be the one to decide if something is too emotionally painful?

12/8/2013 5:14:04 PM

Then where does that stop? What if she decides two months after the baby is born that it's too painful? Shovel to the skull? What if she and the father break up after 3 years? Shovel to the skull?

I think if you look at my argument, it's not a matter of the rape being emotionally painful. Rather, it's a matter of the rape being a complete violation of her body. Consensual sex with a partner doesn't fit that bill, even if after the fact you end up not liking that person. I've stated before that rape is a shitty case all around, because none of the choices are all that great. All of this ignores the fact that abortions of rape pregnancies are statistically dwarfed by abortion as birth control. I don't know why the pro-slaughter side zeroes in on the otherwise edge-case of rape, other than to detract from the sheer horror of slaughtering millions of innocent human lives for no other reason than the mother didn't think about a pregnancy before it happened.

12/8/2013 6:35:49 PM

It shouldn't stop anywhere as long as its part of her body; you are the one proposing a place where it stops, not me. You have to explain why it stops there. Why is rape the only case where it is allowed? What if a woman breaks up with the father and doesn't want a reminder, why is that not allowed? You still haven't tried to explain why you stop at rape.

Explain why consensual sex doesn't fit the argument? If the argument is about minimizing or stopping an emotionally painful experience, why is that only true about non-consensual sex? A reminder of consensual sex could be equally painful, why should a woman not be allowed to make her own decision about what reminder is too painful?

You are still making the slut-shaming argument, where its allowed in cases of rape because its not her fault and is not allowed in any other cases because it's her fault, because that's the consequence of sex. You are trying to make it some utilitarian position where the goal is to reduce pain, but by stopping it at rape your true colors shine through.




[Edited on December 8, 2013 at 7:33 PM. Reason : tl;dr: you are still making a slut-shaming argument]

12/8/2013 7:32:08 PM

one thing I do know is that if there is a shovel-to-the-skull murder locally, police should probably interview aaronburro

what the fuck, man?

12/8/2013 8:01:31 PM

I'm coming here to assert nothing other than the fact that aaronburro is a ridiculous person to try to have a conversation with. this has nothing to do with my views on the subject, I've just bern reading after a long hiatus from this site and his brand of argument is rather inflammatory and superficial. but assuming everyone's views should be heard, is there a way to de-dbag his opinions?

[Edited on December 9, 2013 at 12:30 AM. Reason : fff]

12/9/2013 12:29:25 AM

Quote :

"pro-slaughter side"

I think we're done here.

12/9/2013 8:22:09 AM

^^ I actually responded to his position and ignored his histrionics. I think I've pretty clearly explained the problem with his position, I don't know how to make the problems with that position any more clear. It's just a circle now where people keep making that argument and I keep explaining why it doesn't work.



[Edited on December 9, 2013 at 8:46 AM. Reason : ^^]

12/9/2013 8:37:24 AM

Quote :

"I don't know why the pro-slaughter side zeroes in on the otherwise edge-case of rape, other than to detract from the sheer horror of slaughtering millions of innocent human lives for no other reason than the mother didn't think about a pregnancy before it happened."

AND father.

The mother and father didn't think about a pregnancy before it happened.

12/9/2013 9:01:14 AM

I guess none of them have a rebuttal

12/16/2013 7:01:15 PM

china, world champions-

336 million served!

.........................................................................

aaronburro should slob a big fat dick, although he should probably spit the contents into the nearest pussy so it doesnt constitute an abortion.

12/16/2013 10:08:33 PM

I kept getting reamed for saying the far left is actively encouraging abortion.

92% of women at Planned Parenthood are counseled to and then receive abortions. less than 1% adopt. NO ENCOURAGEMENT THERE!

http://www.lifenews.com/2013/01/08/92-of-pregnant-women-at-planned-parenthood-get-abortions/
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/annual-report-4661.htm

but the crisis pregnancy centers, who are honest about what they encourage (namely...life), are the SHAMS! the far left says everyone plays by the same rules but is so incredibly blinded by their bias that they rig the game enormously in their favor.

12/18/2013 3:28:00 PM

Do you think that's maybe because the women who turn to Planned Parenthood are already pretty certain they want an abortion?

12/18/2013 3:36:42 PM

Quote :

"92% of women at Planned Parenthood are counseled to and then receive abortions. less than 1% adopt. NO ENCOURAGEMENT THERE! "

what possible agenda could planned parenthood have for encouraging abortion?

[Edited on December 18, 2013 at 3:47 PM. Reason : v that doesn't make any sense]

12/18/2013 3:38:48 PM

I think his point is that the far left gets excited about abortions, and therefore encourages them as much as possible.

12/18/2013 3:42:13 PM

Quote :

"but the crisis pregnancy centers, who are honest about what they encourage (namely...life)"

Aren't these the places that tell women not to take birth control?

lol

12/18/2013 3:59:48 PM

why do you need birth control, God should decide how many children you have

12/18/2013 4:23:27 PM

Quote :

"I kept getting reamed for saying the far left is actively encouraging abortion. "

First, reamed by whom? And secondly, good! Someone should be actively encouraging abortion.

Quote :

"but the crisis pregnancy centers, who are honest about what they encourage (namely...life), are the SHAMS! the far left says everyone plays by the same rules but is so incredibly blinded by their bias that they rig the game enormously in their favor. "

To me they're shams as much as any other church. Convincing women to have babies they don't want based on what, exactly?

12/18/2013 4:48:31 PM

Dude, you're feeding his narrative

Quote :

""That is, the left actively promotes the scrambling of babies."

12/18/2013 4:57:09 PM

Ohmy, have you read anything about crisis pregnancy centers that didn't come from some site like "lifenews.com" or from the centers themselves? I'll post the wiki again, and some more info. Show me that you don't just read the first paragraph of anything that discredits your view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_pregnancy_center

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/pregnancy/standard-21507.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/caitlin-bancroft/crisis-pregnancy-center_b_3763196.html

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/elections/elections-press-releases/2013/undercover-audio-from.html

Yes, the latter two come from left-leaning media outlets, but do you think the shit you read is going to do an undercover investigation of them?

12/18/2013 4:57:50 PM

Quote :

" Society LEGALIZES and even ENCOURAGES the specific causal action of one. That is, the left actively promotes the scrambling of babies. The other is an indirect, unfortunate, and unintended consequence which no side wants. An unintended consequence of neglectful actions, sure, but the causal relationship is a little more obscured. so...there's that "

-ohmy
9-Dec-2013 2:13 PM

which elicited the following "reamings":

Quote :

"quote:That is, the left actively promotes the scrambling of babies./quote uh, no they most certainly do not this: The other is an indirect, unfortunate, and unintended consequence which no side wants. An unintended consequence of neglectful actions, sure, but the causal relationship is a little more obscured. is pretty close to how the left treats abortion"

-dtownral
9-Dec-2013 2:26 PM

Quote :

"quote:That is, the left actively promotes the scrambling of babies./quote This is pretty disingenuous. Although I'm learning not to expect much more from you."

-Bullet
9-Dec-2013 2:39 PM

reamed

[Edited on December 18, 2013 at 5:00 PM. Reason : reamed]

12/18/2013 4:59:09 PM

^^^I'm not "the left" and aside from that demonizing abortion isn't something that should be tolerated. It would be a good thing IF the left actively encouraged abortions, after actively encouraging birth control.

[Edited on December 18, 2013 at 4:59 PM. Reason : too slow]

12/18/2013 4:59:16 PM

there were more posts earlier in the thread "criticizing" whenever I said or implied that people not only legislated but encouraged abortion. you guys act like all the liberal cultural forces acknowldge abortion as a necessary evil, not something to be celebrated. The scrambling of the fetus, sure, they try to hide. The WOMEN'S CHOICE to scramble it...they celebrate.

Getting reamed was hyperbole. Scrambling absolutely is not. Or severing spinal chords. Change the language to "terminate pregnancy" if you want. But scrambling and severing is exactly what's happening.

Anyways, sounds like you guys have already conceded that the far left (or certain interests...pro-choicers, planned parenthood, certain progressives, etc) is not just legalizing but also encouraging abortion. If not, you're just not paying attention.

12/18/2013 7:46:28 PM

Show me examples of celebrating, because I think maybe you just don't know what celebrate means

Quote :

"But scrambling and severing is exactly what's happening."

except that this is not true for all abortions (most?), and you only said scrambling before on purpose


[Edited on December 18, 2013 at 7:54 PM. Reason : and wait, why should women being allowed to make choices about their body not be celebrated?]

12/18/2013 7:49:23 PM

Maybe your sky fairy should smite them.

12/18/2013 7:57:35 PM

Quote :

"92% of women at Planned Parenthood are counseled to and then receive abortions. less than 1% adopt. NO ENCOURAGEMENT THERE! "

hey mister logic man, I'll give you $5 lafta bucks if you can figure out why you can't make that conclusion from the link you posted or the statistics that they use.

[Edited on December 18, 2013 at 7:59 PM. Reason : other than it being false and made up, that's the obvious answer and it doesn't count]

12/18/2013 7:58:14 PM

encouragement doesn't only come in the form of "Hey, yeah! You should totally get an abortion!"

12/18/2013 8:00:29 PM

Answer: That would be 92% of people receiving "services" are receiving abortions, you can't conclude that they are counseled to receive abortions and there is no reason to make that jump. Your link has the headline: "92% of Pregnant Women at Planned Parenthood Get Abortions" which is also not true. Only about 3% of Planned Parent services are abortion, they are using really crazy math and huge assumptions to get their 92%



[Edited on December 18, 2013 at 8:14 PM. Reason : pic]

12/18/2013 8:11:26 PM

^^So since you seem to be completely unconcerned with anything I posted above, I take it that you think the life-altering lying and deception that goes on in crisis pregnancy centers is justified because they're "saving lives" that would otherwise be taken by the evil liberal baby-scramblers at Planned Parenthood.

What is with the adherence to the word "scramble" to describe abortion, anyway? They don't shove a stick blender up there and go to town. They suck it out, pull it out, or chemically induce it.

[Edited on December 18, 2013 at 10:46 PM. Reason : .]

12/18/2013 10:44:46 PM

I had scrambled eggs this morning, it made me think of ohmy

12/19/2013 8:57:58 AM