Im not sure about that boone.

Passing it will do for the US what its doing for Mass. Which wont go over well once people realize what they have been sold.

Gotta love the provision on page 16 that "Those who currently have private individual coverage won't be able to change it. Nor will those who leave a company to work for themselves be free to buy individual plans from private carriers."

7/21/2009 3:22:58 PM

boone, reform implies that his modifications to the health care system will be positive. Also, he has a long way to go to get it passed. his own party members are starting to see him as the liability to them that he will be at election time.

[Edited on July 21, 2009 at 3:23 PM. Reason : ...]

7/21/2009 3:23:01 PM

I've got a good idea. Let's appoint an overweight surgeon general.


BRILLIANT


http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=8129947&page=1

7/21/2009 6:40:46 PM

THAT MAKES ABOUT AS MUCH AS SENSE AS A SECRETARY OF DEFENSE WITH NO MILITARY EXPERIENCE

except we've had those too

and they did fine

7/21/2009 6:55:57 PM

every doctor or nurse who is overweight should be fired immediately.

AN OVERWEIGHT DOCTOR? IN MY HOSPITAL!?
it's more likely than you think.

7/21/2009 7:30:54 PM

that doc can save your life

7/21/2009 7:32:27 PM

Quote :

"I've got a good idea. Let's appoint an overweight surgeon general. BRILLIANT"

If it means that we'll all collectively shut the fuck up about obesity as a "public health" crisis rather than a subpar lifestyle choice, then I'm all for it.

Of course we won't, so the point is moot.

7/21/2009 7:34:28 PM

but.. obesity is a public health crisis

[Edited on July 21, 2009 at 7:38 PM. Reason : where the fuck have you been?]

7/21/2009 7:35:52 PM

Yeah, I forgot - fat is contagious. Like smallpox.

7/21/2009 7:54:17 PM

It's had a virus like effect on my wallet lately. So yeah.

7/21/2009 8:05:08 PM

Quote :

"Gotta love the provision on page 16 that "Those who currently have private individual coverage won't be able to change it. Nor will those who leave a company to work for themselves be free to buy individual plans from private carriers."

I can't tell...are you playing an intricate joke in which you pretend you're so stupid that you simply regurgitate conservative pundits' misrepresentation of something which is very clearly in the definition of which plans are grandfathered out of the program, or are actually that misinformed and/or stupid?

7/21/2009 11:07:35 PM

is TKE fat?

7/21/2009 11:18:54 PM

Quote :

"Shock: Inside the Healthcare Bill Following the mad recommendations of Peter Singer made in NYT's Sunday magazine, it pays to take a look at what is actually in the healthcare bill. It's worse than you can possibly imagine. Somehow, it manages to be Singer on steroids. Who wrote this bill. It has Singer's footprints all over it. Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) is reading it and has been posting on Twitter his findings. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman's) Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!! Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!! Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice! PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued! Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan 4 retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN). Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control. PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare! PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps 2 sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - U Health care WILL b rationed -PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monop pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make. Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay 4 HC 4 part time employees AND their families. Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Emplyr w payroll 400k & above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesnt prov. pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC accrdng 2 Govt will be taxed 2.5% of inc Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from indiv. taxes. (Americans will pay) Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access 2 ALL Americans finan/pers recs PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician svcs 4 Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesnt matter what specialty u have, you'll all be paid the same PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Dr's time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans. PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing! Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals 4 what Govt deems preventable readmissions. Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Drs, treat a patient during initial admiss that results in a readmiss-Govt will penalize u. Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own. Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have oppt to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!! Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority 2 disqual Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps in2 Govt plan Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs ppl! WTF. My sis has down syndrome!! Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Cmtte. Can u say HC by phone? PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory! PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides apprvd list of end of life resources, guiding u in death PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program 4 orders 4 end of life. The Govt has a say in how ur life ends Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "adv. care planning consult" will b used frequently as patients health deteriorates PG 429 Lines 10-12 "adv. care consultation" may incl an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order. PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment u will have at end of life Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!? Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based org. Like ACORN? PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt in2 ur marriage Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs "

7/21/2009 11:53:36 PM

If 6'2" 190 is fat, then yes I am.

7/22/2009 12:03:24 AM

What's the deal with all the "OMG GOVT WILL RATION HEALTHCARE!1"

Of course it will. Why is this a bad thing, though?

A gov't insurance program better darn well ration health care. Should we spend tens of thousands of tax dollars to prolong someone's life by a couple months? What about tens of thousands for an 85 year old to get a heart transplant?

7/22/2009 12:14:21 AM

yeah, but when the gov't does that, it's a socialist eugenics program. When a private insurance company does it, it's simply "smart business"

7/22/2009 12:20:55 AM

Quote :

"Gotta love the provision on page 16 that "Those who currently have private individual coverage won't be able to change it. Nor will those who leave a company to work for themselves be free to buy individual plans from private carriers." "

To reiterate spookyjon... you don't know what you're talking about (which is scary since you are theoretically a healthcare provider).

See the other thread for a clarification.

7/22/2009 1:06:22 AM

Quote :

"it's a socialist eugenics program"

Perhaps you meant "socialist euthanasia program"

Quote :

"Should we spend tens of thousands of tax dollars to prolong someone's life by a couple months? "

Currently if you're 85 and need a pacemaker, and your insurance company says no, you can pay for it out of pocket if you can afford it.

With Obama-care, that option is forbidden. When the gov't bureacrat says it's time for you to die..there is no appeal.

Quote :

"Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here"

ACORN Nurse: Hello Mrs. Smith I've come with your medicine.

Smith: Oh thank you.

ACORN: By the way did you fill out your democrat contribution card yet?

Smith: Well no..I sort of disagree with the democrats

ACORN: Oh No! I must've left your prescription back at the clinic. I'll have to bring it by next time. And maybe then you'll have your contribution to us all ready.

Smith: Oh My!

7/22/2009 1:18:14 AM

Quote :

"With Obama-care, that option is forbidden."

[citation needed]

7/22/2009 1:25:34 AM

^ i was wondering...

i'm pretty sure that EarthDogg's interpretation of the system in grossly incorrect.

7/22/2009 1:26:50 AM

Quote :

"H.R.3200: 10 ‘‘(4) A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order."

OK perhaps not blatantly but effectively forbidden. Gov't has option to cut off your treatment. If there is mention of being able to appeal this "order", I didn't find it.

After the TARP, Stimulus and Cap & Tax bills, the faster Obama & the democrats want to pass this mess, the more I want the process to be slowed down so it can be studied more carefully. (maybe actually read by politicians before they vote on it!)

7/22/2009 2:15:11 AM

a pock:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gitmo21-2009jul21,0,7424103.story

Quote :

" Obama to miss Guantanamo deadlines Obama administration officials said Monday they would not meet self-imposed deadlines for deciding what to do with scores of detainees too dangerous to release from the prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The delays, involving those who cannot be tried, raise questions about whether the White House can close the prison by January, as President Obama pledged when he took office. Although officials said the deadline still would be met, a task force studying the issue was expected to deliver its recommendations by Jan. 22 -- exactly one year after Obama issued his executive order to close the prison within a year. ... "

The article headline is a little misleading... it looks like some things are going as planned, while others MIGHT not hit the final deadlines established.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 2:47 AM. Reason : ]

7/22/2009 2:46:38 AM

Quote :

"What's the deal with all the "OMG GOVT WILL RATION HEALTHCARE!1" Of course it will. Why is this a bad thing, though? A gov't insurance program better darn well ration health care. Should we spend tens of thousands of tax dollars to prolong someone's life by a couple months? What about tens of thousands for an 85 year old to get a heart transplant?"

Because the american public is being sold this plan as a way out of those evil corporations that only care about money and will deny your 85 year old grandmother her heart transplant because it doesn't make financial sense. But as you say (and as any tax payer should rationally demand) the government will have to make these rationing decisions the same as any for profit or non profit health insurance corporation does today. So the only real promise left is that the government plan will somehow be affordable to those who can't afford private insurances now and all one needs to do is look at Mass. for an idea of how long and well that will work.

7/22/2009 7:55:30 AM

Quote :

"H.R.3200: 10 ‘‘(4) A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order."

Quote :

"OK perhaps not blatantly but effectively forbidden. Gov't has option to cut off your treatment. If there is mention of being able to appeal this "order", I didn't find it."

Gov't has option to cut off your government treatment. Where does it even hint that you can't go private after that?

Quote :

"Because the american public is being sold this plan as a way out of those evil corporations that only care about money and will deny your 85 year old grandmother her heart transplant because it doesn't make financial sense."

Is that really how it's being sold? I could've sworn it was about universal coverage-- not the bestest coverage in the whole world.

Here's a big ass speech given by him the other day:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Reforming-Health-Insurance-Reforming-Washington/

Nowhere does it even hint that people who opt into the plan will get more-thorough coverage. Half the rationale behind the plan is that it won't spend money frivilously.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 8:33 AM. Reason : ]

7/22/2009 8:28:16 AM

Quote :

"Currently if you're 85 and need a pacemaker, and your insurance company says no, you can pay for it out of pocket if you can afford it. With Obama-care, that option is forbidden. When the gov't bureacrat says it's time for you to die..there is no appeal. "

Are you people being deliberately obtuse or what? This has absolutely zero basis in fact, so once again I'm left to wonder if you're willfully misrepresenting the truth or if you're just too stupid to understand it. You and TKE-Teg should start a club.

7/22/2009 8:57:34 AM

remember when people who payed for private school tried to stop paying taxes to fund public schools.

oh noes

7/22/2009 9:58:18 AM

I'm trying to figure out why everybody isn't up in arms about the evils of the RATIONING OF PUBLIC EDUCATION!!!

I wanted to take 14 hours of classes a day BUT THE SOCIALIST ELITES WOULDN'T LET ME!!! Plus, as I understand it from reading conservative blogs, studying outside of school and paying for private tutors IS PROBABLY DEFINITELY ILLEGAL!!!

7/22/2009 10:07:36 AM

^ Yah, why don't conservative Republicans support school voucher programs to introduce market forces and improve the incentive for educational innovation!?!?!?

Those hypocritical fucks!!!

7/22/2009 10:11:24 AM

NEWSFLASH: BRAND NEW EDUCATIONAL INNOVATION OF NOT MIXING YOUR KIDS WITH THE POOR KIDS. MORE AT 11.

/snark

7/22/2009 10:12:53 AM

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/07/rebootfccgov-a-website-devoted-to-fcc-reform-comes-online.ars

FCC creates a new website to solicit for reforms from its employees.

7/22/2009 10:16:35 AM

Quote :

"Gov't has option to cut off your government treatment. Where does it even hint that you can't go private after that?"

It doesn't hint.
Wouldn't you feel more comfortable with this bill if it specifically said that doctors can still treat patients when the gov't cuts off treatment?
If it's no big thing, simply insert something that says If you're in the gov't insurance plan, and the gov't cuts you off..it's still legal for a doctor to treat you if you're willing to pay the bill yourself.

7/22/2009 10:34:55 AM

^ that is self evident. This is little more than a government insurance plan... it doesn't turn medical treatment facilities in to government agents.

7/22/2009 10:36:25 AM

How do we know that the bill won't all force to live in soviet-style government housing? IT DOESN'T EXPLICITLY STATE THAT WE WON'T!!!

7/22/2009 11:03:54 AM

Quote :

"Are you people being deliberately obtuse or what? This has absolutely zero basis in fact, so once again I'm left to wonder if you're willfully misrepresenting the truth or if you're just too stupid to understand it. You and TKE-Teg should start a club."

Hey dipshit, what the hell does EarthDogg's argument have in common with my complaint about a fat Surgeon General. If you just want to hate, at least do something clever.

Quote :

"AN OVERWEIGHT DOCTOR? IN MY HOSPITAL!? it's more likely than you think."

If you think I'll continually seek treatment from a fat GP, then you're quite wrong.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 11:22 AM. Reason : k]

7/22/2009 11:21:09 AM

Quote :

"NEWSFLASH: BRAND NEW EDUCATIONAL INNOVATION OF NOT MIXING YOUR KIDS WITH THE POOR KIDS. MORE AT 11."

lmao

7/22/2009 11:25:04 AM

the problem is expensive medical care, not health insurance.

this won't solve anything.

7/22/2009 11:31:05 AM

Quote :

"Hey dipshit, what the hell does EarthDogg's argument have in common with my complaint about a fat Surgeon General. If you just want to hate, at least do something clever."

Sorry, I misremembered and thought that eyedrb's post was yours. I apologize. eyedrb is the very, very stupid person. Not you.

7/22/2009 11:33:55 AM

7/22/2009 1:20:14 PM

why should any private plan be "grandfathered" in spooky? I thought this wasnt a takeover. Do you have list of plans that arent grandfathered in? I would like to see them, since im a stupid person and all.


And people trying to make news out of this surgeon general's weight is a bit childish.

7/22/2009 1:47:17 PM

I don't know if this is supposed to be a serious thread or what but Reagan had it right when he appointed the Most Interesting Man in the World as Surgeon General. C. Everett Koop ftw.



Stay thirsty my friends!

7/22/2009 1:53:44 PM

a) GRANDFATHERED HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE DEFINED.--Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term ''grandfathered health insurance coverage'' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

(1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT.--

(A) IN GENERAL.--Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance
issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1.

Page 19
1) IN GENERAL.--Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.



Straight from the bill itself.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 1:59 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2009 1:57:15 PM

Quote :

"that is self evident. This is little more than a government insurance plan... "

You're very wrong there. This bill encompasses much more than simply setting up a gov't insurance company. It will dictate what doctors can do, how much they are paid, how much treatment you can get. The gov't will have complete access to your medical records and bank accounts.

And when it comes to gov't, Nothing Is Self-Evident. Many of the founding fathers were cynics of the fledgling Constitution. They demanded a Bill of Rights to protect individuals agaisnt a run-away federal gov't. The other side laughed at them. They said It was obvious that anything not specifically assigned as a gov't responsibility was off-limits.

And today, the Bill or Rights, constantly under attack from both Left and Right, is basically the last shred of protection we have against Fedzilla.

7/22/2009 9:48:54 PM

Quote :

"This bill encompasses much more than simply setting up a gov't insurance company. It will dictate what doctors can do, how much they are paid, how much treatment you can get. The gov't will have complete access to your medical records and bank accounts."

care to reference, you know, anything?

7/22/2009 9:55:15 PM

AYN RAND. CASE CLOSED!!!!!!!

Quote :

"a) GRANDFATHERED HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE DEFINED.--Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term ''grandfathered health insurance coverage'' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met: (1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT.-- (A) IN GENERAL.--Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1. Page 19 1) IN GENERAL.--Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan. Straight from the bill itself."

Yes. Non-grandfathered plans must be part of the exhchange. OH THE HUMANITY@!!!!

7/22/2009 10:11:54 PM

Quote :

"care to reference, you know, anything?"

Read the bill and give me a reference that it simply sets up a gov't insurance entity and nothing more.

Quote :

"Non-grandfathered plans must be part of the exhchange. OH THE HUMANITY@!!!! "

So no big deal being forced into gov't programs? Those whose willingness to surrender their liberty is troubling. To trust gov't and politicians without any critical thought is simply amazing.

7/22/2009 10:31:32 PM

WHERE IS IT STATED THAT ANYONE WILL BE FORCED TO OPT INTO THE GOVT PLAN?

7/22/2009 10:44:01 PM

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-healthcare-talks23-2009jul23,0,220833.story

Visitor logs released

I was off on the timing by a bit, but I knew it would happen...

7/23/2009 1:22:41 AM

Quote :

"Read the bill and give me a reference that it simply sets up a gov't insurance entity and nothing more. "

no. i never made that claim. now cite something.

7/23/2009 6:46:50 AM

Sadly, this is not a one-off. Obama continues to misrepresent the facts in order to present himself favorably to the public.

Quote :

"The president continued to take credit for deficit reduction by making a claim that has been challenged by many experts. “If we had done nothing, if you had the same old budget as opposed to the changes we made,” the deficit over the next 10 years would be $2.2 trillion greater, the president said. In fact, $1.5 trillion of those “savings” are mainly based on an assumption that the United States would have had as many troops in Iraq in 10 years as it did when Mr. Obama took office. But before leaving office, President George W. Bush signed an agreement with Baghdad mandating the withdrawal of all American forces within three years. So Mr. Obama is claiming credit for not spending money that, under the policy he inherited from Mr. Bush, would never have been spent in the first place. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/23/health/policy/23facts.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

7/23/2009 7:14:48 AM

Quote :

"So no big deal being forced into gov't programs? "

If by "force into gov't programs" you mean "new insurance plans will be subject to the current set of laws that do not apply to grandfathered plans", then yes, it's no big deal.

7/23/2009 9:36:54 AM